STRAY CURRENT Issues, need help!

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Bucket

noun
noun: electrolysis
1.
CHEMISTRY
chemical decomposition produced by passing an electric current through a liquid or solution containing ions.


This is literally the definition of what happens on a boat.
Chemical decomposition - check.
Electric current - check
Solution containing ions (seawater) - check

Sorry Bucket, the difference is the polarity.
What happens on a boat is not "electrolysis", that word is not even part of the ABYC syllabus for the training in electrical/corrosion.
I know, the guy who "wrote the book" for ABYC on that subject and has taught classes at the Coast Guard Acadamy and has expert witness standing in courts of law has been a good friend of mine for ~25 years.
We have had many long discussions on Galvanic/Stray Current/Corrosion issues,,, and "Electrolysis" is not a part of what goes on in boats.
Surveyors who use that term don't know what they speak of, don't hire them.

[s/v Jedi]

To add to the discussion, I quote ChatGPT.

I think we have cases of electrolysis as well as galvanic corrosion and while we call electrolysis “stray current” it can be the same process. Normally electrolysis is done on purpose like for electroplating.

Galvanic corrosion and electrolysis are both electrochemical processes involving the degradation of metals, but they occur under different circumstances:

1. Galvanic corrosion: This occurs when two different metals are in electrical contact in the presence of an electrolyte (such as water or saltwater). One metal becomes the anode (the metal that corrodes) and the other becomes the cathode (the metal that is protected). This process happens without an external electrical current and typically occurs in submerged or damp environments.

2. Electrolysis: Electrolysis involves the decomposition of an electrolyte by an electric current. It occurs when an external electrical current is applied to an electrolyte solution, causing the positive ions to migrate towards the negative electrode (cathode) and the negative ions to migrate towards the positive electrode (anode). This process is commonly used in various industrial and chemical processes, such as electroplating and water electrolysis for hydrogen production.

In summary, the main difference lies in the presence or absence of an external electrical current: galvanic corrosion occurs spontaneously without an external current, while electrolysis requires an external current to drive the electrochemical reactions.

[CharlieJ]

@Bucket #30

chemical decomposition produced by passing an electric current through a liquid or solution containing ions.

The chemical decomposition that is referenced occurs in the solution. This is how oxygen generators on submarines make oxygen.

The correct terminology in the marine environment is either electrolytic or stray current corrosion.This occurs when a B+ connection to an underwater metal component (anode) looses ions (corrodes) and creates an ionic path through the electrolyte (the sea) and flows to the cathode, which is protected.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

To add to the discussion, I quote ChatGPT.

I think we have cases of electrolysis as well as galvanic corrosion and while we call electrolysis “stray current” it can be the same process. Normally electrolysis is done on purpose like for electroplating.

One cannot have electrolysis on a boat. In electrolysis, the cathode is negative and the anode is positive. Electrolysis is an induced process used in industry and laboratories. It is the exact opposite of the galvanic process.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

One cannot have electrolysis on a boat. In electrolysis, the cathode is negative and the anode is positive. Electrolysis is an induced process used in industry and laboratories. It is the exact opposite of the galvanic process.

Did you read the AI response?

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Did you read the AI response?

Yes I did.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Yes. It is wrong or should I say ... artificial.

But AI is going to take over the world! How can it be wrong?!

[Fiso]

Originally Posted by Bucket

noun
noun: electrolysis
1.
CHEMISTRY
chemical decomposition produced by passing an electric current through a liquid or solution containing ions.


This is literally the definition of what happens on a boat.

Fully agree with Bucket.

Not trying start another argument with anyone here, but it is literally bombarding ions off of one surface to another surface with current flow and attracter/detractor potential. The direction of ion flow is determined by the polarity applied. (Anode / Cathode). Anyone own anything plated with any material? Something was the sacrificial depositor.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

the difference is the polarity.

Originally Posted by boatpoker

One cannot have electrolysis on a boat. In electrolysis, the cathode is negative and the anode is positive.

Yes, to change a word on an oft repeated political phrase from a couple of decades ago, "It's the polarity stupid".
In a boat we have anodes on the prop shaft, the engine has a battery negative connected to it, the negative bus bars of the systems by default are connected to the engine.
If we have an AC system, (and follow ABYC,) it's green/ground bus is also connected to the DC ground bus and by default to the engine.
And on boats that are bonded the bonding goes to the engine.
And in some boats the mast/rigging connect to the bonding or a keel bolt.
The whole d**n boat can become a floating anode.
The cast iron engine, the aluminum mast, the aluminum transmission, the aluminum water tanks, and all the non-passivated stainless and cast iron keel are all pretty low on the nobility scale.
Bronze seacocks? leave them alone, when you connect them to bonding/zinc you're just creating a battery, (that's another subject in itself).
Anyway, so then we just put an "anode" on the prop shaft so that we have something that's "more anodic" than the boat in the faint hope that things work out, yeah right.
At the molecular level electrolysis is a violent act that uses outside electrical force to enact changes in positions on the scale of nobility, notwithstanding its use in separating gases from fluids.

[Fiso]

Originally Posted by Fiso

Fully agree with Bucket.

Not trying start another argument with anyone here, but it is literally bombarding ions off of one surface to another surface with current flow and attracter/detractor potential. The direction of ion flow is determined by the polarity applied. (Anode / Cathode). Anyone own anything plated with any material? Something was the sacrificial depositor.

Actually, I retract my comment, and think I need to do some more homework to it. The difference between Galvanic Corrosion and Electrolysis was something I hadn't thought of. The differences that posted by Bodrie and Jedi may have some good valid points. Maybe time for some more studying here.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Fiso

Fully agree with Bucket.

Not trying start another argument with anyone here, but it is literally bombarding ions off of one surface to another surface with current flow and attracter/detractor potential. The direction of ion flow is determined by the polarity applied. (Anode / Cathode). Anyone own anything plated with any material? Something was the sacrificial depositor.

I guess that works for anyone who does not know the difference between positive and negative.

I suggest you get your info from reputable organizations such as NACE/AMPP ...https://www.ampp.org/technical-resea...anic-corrosion or even MIT rather than AI or internet lore.

[Fiso]

See your own article posted between natural charge states of materials. It is the same process, just one is induced artificially with a potential difference of different material charge states in a conductive environment and one is induced charged states externally.

[Fiso]

Misstated....eeer, one is natural, and the other is not.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Fiso

Misstated....eeer, one is natural, and the other is not.

As I said if opposite poles mean nothing to you ... thats fine.

[Fiso]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

As I said if opposite poles mean nothing to you ... thats fine.

Man, you guys have me baffled in your responses as they make no sense. The Anode (positively charged one) to the Cathode (negatively charged one) flows electrons from the positively ones to the negatively ones. If I charge an ION of a material to the positive charged state, it will flow, and bond, to the one with the positively the charged state. If I bombard and ion of (Name your material here) from the Anode to the Cathode, I deplete one while adding to the other. Name your metal here?

If you do that from a naturally occurring potential difference between the two or an induced potential between the two, what changed physically in that process except what we call it?