Is the market flooded with fake dangerous solar cable

[Robint]

Ahoy there.


Has anyone come across XLPE Solar cables as used on panels which turn out to be falsely represented to the buyer. I my case I received (a short length) of what looked like a genuine TUV certified item but on closer measurement had a core size of ca 4mm2 (84 x 0.25mm)rather than the 6mm2 I order and what was printed on the cable sheath? I had another sample from a different source and this was 3.12mm2 ie 50% below the listed csa and ampacity (ca 40 A vs 70A)

[GordMay]

I doubt that the market is “flooded” with falsely represented [mislabeled] wire & cable; but ‘bargain’ products, of unknown provenance, should be suspect.

Solar power Photovoltaic [PV] Wire should be labelled UL4703, and/or EN50618.

‘XLPE’ is an abbreviation for Cross-Linked PolyEthylene [PE], and refers to a process, where the molecular structure of polyethylene changes, as a result of chemical means [including additives, such as silane or peroxide], or using physical means [high-energy electron or microwave radiation].
This process changes polyethylene, from a thermoplastic material ,that softens with heat, to a thermoset material, that does not soften [or shrink] when heated. Cross-linking the PE, to become XLPE, increases the temperature range of the insulation, whilst maintaining the electrical [dielectric] properties.

How do I identify an XLPE cable:
Solar power Photovoltaic [PV] Wire should be labelled UL4703, and/or EN50618.

Cost: XLPE insulated cables are more expensive, than PVC cables.
Wire is, pretty much, a commodity producrt so you shouldn’t expect “exceptional” bargains. If the price is ‘too good to be true’; it probably is too good.
Purchase cables, made by known manufacturers, sold by known distributors.

Toughness: XLPE insulation is tougher than PVC, and more tightly bound to the conductor, making it stiffer, and more difficult to strip.

[Robint]

Originally Posted by GordMay

I doubt that the market is “flooded” with falsely represented [mislabeled] wire & cable; but ‘bargain’ products, of unknown provenance, should be suspect.

Thanx Gord


FYI I would not be troubling this board if I had gone out and sourced a cheap charlie unbranded product. As the saying goes "you get what you pay for"]The samples I received were branded as per the TUV spec completed with maker's ID and refs and material specs and its csa 6mm2.So at first sight you think you are buying a correct cable, only to find on measurement that it is 84x0.22mm dia wire strands rather than 84 x 0.30mm dia strands. This means 3.12mm2 vs 6mm2 - thats a very big difference - not 70A but 35A ampacity.It may be stateside you dont have this type of fraud fake products, counterfeit issues? Just checking if anyone has heard of this.

[bccoast]

pretty "clickbate" title. 2 samples you allege are under spec and now pose the question is the whole market flooded? maybe try a different approach for your first thread and posts.

You said they are branded and not cheap knockoffs. Did you contact the manufacturer then, ask for an explanation? Not much we can offer with anonymous claims.

alternative perspective, heard somewhere they measure them like 2x4's. when I found out my house was built with 1.5x3.5 lumber instead of 2x4, wondered if the whole market was flooded with undersized dangerous timber.

[Wotname]

Welcome aboard CF. It is an interesting first post and I for one, find it concerning that branded cable could be so undersized. Thanks for letting us know.

That you have 2 cables from different sources is more concerning. It is very likely the retailer(s) has/have no idea and simply accepts the cable as kosher.

With the massive rise in solar products and the attendant huge amounts of cable needed, it comes as no surprise there could be counterfeit cable in the market place. As always - Buyer Beware; this post is timely.

If you get get any explanation from your supplier, please update us here.

[Wotname]

BTW, did the samples have a significant price difference from other prospective suppliers?

Price is often but not always an indicator of quality.

[Robint]

Guys, Im not trying to be a smart ass and I have no hidden agenda or affiliations. Its just I was presented with this astonishing case here and it left me gobsmacked. Such blatant fraud just left me exasperated. As Im a generally a backwoods man on my boat I cant just holler across to see if any others heard about this. I can tell you that some of these "Solar" forums are rather focused on YT points and sponsorship and dont readily encourage critical appraisal - spoils the shop front image? So I just threw open the problem to see if anyone else heard rumours of this scam. IMHO its a bit serious.
Another point about Solar Cables is they are made to run is Air and at much higher temps (eg 60Cmax for PVC vs 90C for XLPE Solar), so if your cable is deliberately under sized by 50% - thats going to be a scalding cable. High temps quickly degrade sheath material - gets brittle. Its maybe different in the US as a rogue supplier would quickly have a law suit on his tail.

[Robint]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Welcome aboard CF. It is an interesting first post and I for one, find it concerning that branded cable could be so undersized. Thanks for letting us know.

That you have 2 cables from different sources is more concerning. It is very likely the retailer(s) has/have no idea and simply accepts the cable as kosher.

With the massive rise in solar products and the attendant huge amounts of cable needed, it comes as no surprise there could be counterfeit cable in the market place. As always - Buyer Beware; this post is timely.

If you get get any explanation from your supplier, please update us here.

Hi Wotsit.
As you are down under, you are more likely exposed to PRC dung. No doubt you are familiar with Andy's Offgridgarage. I have been burnt by a lot of EB and Ali X goods so it makes me very wary. The whole Solar/battery thing is a huge fertile ground for fraudsters. Sifting out the rubbish takes up sooooo much of my time. I am in msg with suppliers but I fully expect the doors to be slammed shut.
Down under you have a lively lot of Solar pannelers from the Gov grant scheme you have and they pledge that every leaky tin roof in Stralia will get a Solar covering. Good on yer. And you have an upgraded version of the Aussie Elec Regs specifically addressing solar energy needs - Im blown away.

[Robint]

Update on Cable Wars. I have contacted the true Cable maker and presented him with findings and quoting the wholesalers description of the 6mm2 cable turns out not to be made in UK by the manufacturer but imported (rather misleading website I think - but lying seems fashionable today). He was shocked and is urgently investigating.
In the meantime I tried to teminate my sample with ring terms. Well that was a joke, the cable just fell out of the hydraulic crimp tool and was useless jointing. Obviously an undersized cable wont have enough meat to grip on. So it an insult to injury that you cant do field terminations
I am going to try some 4mm2 ring terms (non standard in the Solar world) and see if I can get a grip


Will report back

[Pete7]

Robin,

Thanks for the warning. I tend to buy cable in the UK from 12V Planet and panels from Bimble Solar so fairy confident they are what the label says. however, I might measure the latest delivery to see

Whilst I agree Ali Express offers some excellent savings, I would rather not have concrete blocks in my LifePO4 battery boxes

[Robint]

Indeed 12VP is a useful stockist but not for drums or/m of TUV solar cable. They do an extension 10m x 6mm2 solar cable (allegedly) with MC4connectors (copies?) for £43 (so a panel need 2x). You would need to check if this is a genuine TUV rated cable as these are good for 70A vs a PVC @ 50A. Also Solar runs up to 90C vs PVC up 60C
PVC 7 strand ca 50% cost of Solar Silicone sheath 84 strand


Note big extra profit +50% in selling 4mm2 cable as 6mm2 cable



But you maybe ok with PVC 10mm2 for indoor fixed cables not exposed to UV weather


BTW of course 70A @48V is ca 3.5kW so as average domestic extension lead type supply.


As you may have found, resorting to soldering your ring terms to 6mm2 solar is a real PITA and needs a 100-150W iron or a mini gas torch - takes maybe 10mins faff. A school of thought says you should not solder those insulated

crimp terms common in autos as the solder wicks up the strands inside the sheath and you get a hidden joint between flexible strands and solid copper tin core which over time can cause brittle fracture as the copper work hardens with flexing as in a car. Thats from the mechanics lunchbox.


I gotta sort this crimp issue

[wholybee]

If they are fraudulently selling wire that is so grossly undersized that it won't work with the correct terminals, that isn't a fraud that would be successful for very long. Whatever company would quickly be found out, like on the first sale.

That said, warehouses make errors. Maybe you were just shipped the wrong product?

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Robint

Indeed 12VP is a useful stockist but not for drums or/m of TUV solar cable.

You would need to check if this is a genuine TUV rated cable

TUV is a German standard isn't it? Why does UK solar cable need to comply with this?

Is there another supplier in the UK that offer high quality solar 6mm cable?

Pete

[Robint]

Originally Posted by Pete7

TUV is a German standard isn't it? Why does UK solar cable need to comply with this?

Is there another supplier in the UK that offer high quality solar 6mm cable?

Pete

The TUV mark is the EU/international standard for solar cables - its a bit like your UL org.


I thought it would be simple, hence raising alarm bells.


Sorry to say that Diy solar industry is flooded with all kinds of related items coming in from PRC. We dont have the same established inspections in place as you do eg you must have an EE inspection of installations to NEC codes etc. We are sooooooo far behind and the market is rife with cowboys. I am trawling around forums to see if anyone else has come across fake undersized cables.

[Tin Tin]

I bought some tinned marine cable the other day. Its "nominal" size was 6mm (10AWG) - the actual cross sectional area was 4.5mm2 . So then I checked a bit more and apparently there are industry naming conventions. See this website for 10AWG and look at the asterisk notes. https://www.12volt.com.au/6mm-10awg-...8-amp-4.5mm-so


Also a comment from a cable manufacture from Quora (Kuka Cable):


".......The actual cross-sectional area of the cable. This indicator refers to the actual cross-sectional area of the conductor. It is a value measured with a micrometer. For photovoltaic cable manufacturers, it is the nominal cross-sectional area designed to meet the requirements of the standard. How large is the conductor cross-section, which means that the design cross-section (electrical cross-section) under the nominal cross-section must meet this requirement: The standard requirement is whether the DC resistance meets the standard requirement. Today, with the improvement of the conductor material production process and With the advancement of science and technology, advanced production technology of oxygen-free copper materials has been widely used. The resistivity of the copper conductor material is sufficient to ensure that the copper wire with a diameter smaller than the nominal diameter can meet the requirements of the corresponding DC resistance specifications. The conductor of the photovoltaic cable has strict requirements on the resistivity of the conductor. For example, the standard stipulates that the DC resistance of a 25 square millimeter copper core conductor at 20° is not more than 0.727Ω/km (the second type of stranded conductor). The conductor larger than this value is qualified. Therefore, as long as the conductor with the nominal cross-sectional area of each specification meets the DC resistivity specified by the standard, there is no clear relationship between the nominal cross-sectional area of the conductor and the actual cross-sectional area."