Home refrigerator in catamaran?

[CatNewBee]

I would stick to 12V units. The inverter alone burns around 40...60 Ah per day when running non-stop. Also residential fridges are not optimized for power saving.

It is doable, but you need a strong and reliable power source, like a huge solar array. Fridges with ice maker are even worse energy-wise.

If you go this road, you probably need to consider LFP batteries to cover the many deeper cycles.

[Jef & Marin, Netherlands]

Good news. Liebherr New Zealand can supply the European models as special order. When I order now it will be supplied end of february.
Seeing that having a broken inverter would be a disaster, I will be installing our old inverter running 24/7, and have a new inverter/charger which will be used only when required. That way if one breaks down, the fridge, watermaker and so on will still work.
However the total sum (fridge, carpentry, inverter) is pretty high. We will need to live many years aboard to make it worthwhile....

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

We had one and loved it. On shore power, consumption is not a big deal and away from shore power a 20# tank lasts for weeks.

Yes, it has to be installed properly...same as propane stoves that most boats have...if you are going to say no propane system can be safe, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I second this. I have a Norcold gas adsorption refrigerator and freezer. Keeps ice cream cold, is as big as a small house unit, has an opening front door on both the refrigerator and freezer. Puts all marine refrigerators to shame.

Runs 3 weeks on a BBQ size 20lb propane tank. I have 4 of these tanks in my propane locker. So I get 3 months of operation between propane fills. Refrigeration doesn't affect my power budget at all.

However, I'm contemplating going solar/domestic when this one breaks only because you absolutely never have to get propane.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I second this. I have a Norcold gas adsorption refrigerator and freezer. Keeps ice cream cold, is as big as a small house unit, has an opening front door on both the refrigerator and freezer. Puts all marine refrigerators to shame.

Runs 3 weeks on a BBQ size 20lb propane tank. I have 4 of these tanks in my propane locker. So I get 3 months of operation between propane fills. Refrigeration doesn't affect my power budget at all.

However, I'm contemplating going solar/domestic when this one breaks only because you absolutely never have to get propane.

The propane fridges (absorber) are "ammonia cooker", mainly using a heat element (220V or 110V + 12V heater) and a propane burner to evaporate the cooling liquid and then a condenser to create the cooling circulation. That is very energy in-efficient, especially if you want to run it on batteries, a lot of heat must be first created and then removed / vented out of the system and you have an open flame - that might be dangerous in contained spaces. It needs oxygen and produces CO2, so also dangerous if not vented and isolated properly - CO2 is heavier than air and can poison you over time down below. It is only good for RV, where the back side is on the outside hull of the vehicle and properly vented by two openings, one for the air intake down below and one for the exhaust / warm air up. It uses the convection flow of warm air, but this is often not sufficient, so many RV-er add PC-ventilators to improve the air flow behind the fridge.

I would strongly recommend to use a compressor fridge, far more efficient, works in higher temperatures, and less dangerous in a boat.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I would stick to 12V units. The inverter alone burns around 40...60 Ah per day when running non-stop. Also residential fridges are not optimized for power saving.

Rubbish.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I would stick to 12V units. The inverter alone burns around 40...60 Ah per day when running non-stop. Also residential fridges are not optimized for power saving.

We run a Liebherr 120l fridge and another Liebherr 105l freezer - both household units. They are run off a 300W inverter that runs 24/7. Total demand is less than 75Ah/day in the tropics, 50-55Ah/day in more moderate climes. That includes the inverter standby and inefficiency. We keep the fridge at 4C and the freezer at -20C. Most of our friends with boat freezers use at least as much power and envy our rock-hard ice cream.

Originally Posted by Jef & Marin, Netherlands

Good news. Liebherr New Zealand can supply the European models as special order. When I order now it will be supplied end of february.

We have a Liebherr fridge on the boat and decided to add a matching freezer in NZ. As you said they can be special ordered and we did that. Took a few months (since we wanted to wait for the regular container load to avoid excessive shipping costs) but if you can plan ahead easy. We were quite satisfied and it arrived just fine. We've had it for a year and love it.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Rubbish.

I guess, you can prove this statement by some hard facts?

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

We run a Liebherr 120l fridge and another Liebherr 105l freezer - both household units. They are run off a 300W inverter that runs 24/7. Total demand is less than 75Ah/day in the tropics, 50-55Ah/day in more moderate climes. That includes the inverter standby and inefficiency. We keep the fridge at 4C and the freezer at -20C. Most of our friends with boat freezers use at least as much power and envy our rock-hard ice cream.



We have a Liebherr fridge on the boat and decided to add a matching freezer in NZ. As you said they can be special ordered and we did that. Took a few months (since we wanted to wait for the regular container load to avoid excessive shipping costs) but if you can plan ahead easy. We were quite satisfied and it arrived just fine. We've had it for a year and love it.

Very interesting indeed.

The speck says, the freezer draws 1.3A at 230V, what translates to 300W (on the edge of your inverter alone - without a second fridge unit)
For 300W it takes 25A at 12V + 10-20% transformation loss, so you would claim your unit runs in total less than 3h / day to cool the freezer, and additionally you still have the fridge with at least 80W what are another 7-8A, assuming a very efficient use (1/3 cooling time =8h), this alone would draw 60Ah.

I am very keen to see the energy balance of your system. Hard to believe. What inverter are you using?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

The propane fridges (absorber) are "ammonia cooker", mainly using a heat element (220V or 110V + 12V heater) and a propane burner to evaporate the cooling liquid and then a condenser to create the cooling circulation. That is very energy in-efficient, especially if you want to run it on batteries, a lot of heat must be first created and then removed / vented out of the system and you have an open flame - that might be dangerous in contained spaces. It needs oxygen and produces CO2, so also dangerous if not vented and isolated properly - CO2 is heavier than air and can poison you over time down below. It is only good for RV, where the back side is on the outside hull of the vehicle and properly vented by two openings, one for the air intake down below and one for the exhaust / warm air up. It uses the convection flow of warm air, but this is often not sufficient, so many RV-er add PC-ventilators to improve the air flow behind the fridge.

I would strongly recommend to use a compressor fridge, far more efficient, works in higher temperatures, and less dangerous in a boat.

Good lord. If you are going to pretend to know a lot about a topic, please at lease look up the difference between CO and CO2. Ha ha ha

In any case I'm quite happy with the brand new Norcold I installed correctly, which runs on propane for 3 months straight between propane fillups and uses 0.5 Amps DCper hour.

Oh, and once you are done with the CO/CO2 remedial chemistry stuff, here's a book you can check out regarding the gas ADSORPTION refrigeration cycle. Smh

https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Adsorpti...-9781118197431

Don't pretend to know things to argue against something please. Especially when that something is superior to standard marine refrigeration in many ways and could help others out. You're doing people a disservice.


As for efficiency... How is a compressor "far more efficient" than something running on propane?

That's like saying an electric stove top is far more efficient than a gas stovetop.

Doesn't work in high temperatures? I have a 36 degree refrigerator and ice cream in the freezer when it's over 100F and don't think twice.


Lastly, I thought the hot gases from the adsorption process used CONVECTION to rise up. So they rise up by convection and are heavier than air? Lol

Your post is giving me a headache. Seriously.

[Bruce K]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

You don’t want an absorption fridge on a boat, on electricity they are way less efficient, and do have to be kept level, it has to do with the ammonia flow, not electric or propane.
Propane isn’t safe on a boat, unless you keep the fridge outside.

I don’t know if you would call them volatile gases or fuel gases, but flammable gases are being used as refrigerant now, good or bad, it works.

It’s not a new idea, been used for over 100 years I think.
https://climate.emerson.com/document...us-4204352.pdf

I had a propane/AC refrigerator on my previous 50' mono motorsailer, many, many "experts" told me it would not work; I only had the boat for 10 years, and was still waiting for the fridge not to work when I sold the boat. A 9kg tank of propane lasted 3 to 4 weeks, including my stove and BBQ use.

[CatNewBee]

I have one in my RV too, and I know what it takes when running it on 12V or 220V. On propane it is no issue, but inefficient on electricity. You have to make sure the exhaust goes out of the cabin and does not enrich the air with CO2. BTW both gases CO and CO2 are poisonous, CO2 is more likely to be built on a flame when sufficient amount of oxygen is provided, but CO is more dangerous.

[Dsanduril]

When we started we just had the fridge (IKP 1650-20), which ran from a Victron Phoenix 180W inverter (not sure they still make that model), both installed by the PO. When running the fridge drew about 5A (65-70W) and we expected similar for the freezer. When we got the freezer both units mostly ran on that 180W inverter, but every once-in-a-while both units would start up at the same time and trip the inverter offline. It happened about once or twice a week. I still have that inverter in the spares cupboard just in case the newer one dies on me since it did run things for the most part.

After that we switched to a Victron Phoenix 12/375 (375VA, 300/260W cont. [25C/40C], 700W surge). We've been running both units quite successfully on that inverter since December 2016. When both units are running we see 10.2-10.5A at 12V (nominal, usually 12.8-14.1V depending on solar input at the time) which works out to about 140W. One unit or the other draws ~5-6A.

Yes, I know that doesn't match with the spec of 1.2A @ 230VAC (1.3A for the freezer) - that appears to be the startup spike. The PO had installed the fridge and it worked on that small inverter. I did a lot of digging on the Liebherr website to get the running amps of the freezer and did find a reference somewhere. BTW, Liebherr does say that their units cannot be run on an inverter, so you're accepting that risk, and should get a good one.

Quite frankly (and I've posted this here before) with our experience I can't see why anyone would use a 'marine' fridge if they can fit a standard household unit with an A+++ rating. I know lots of boats don't have a convenient rectangular space, but if you do.... The Liebherr units we have are tropical rated (in fact, NZ won't allow them to be imported if they are not T-rated), end up drawing almost exactly what the rating testing says (we used about 300kWh last year), and operate perfectly. The freezer unit is rated to maintain food frozen for 23h with no power. We opted for the front loading model (GP 1486), the top loading cousin has an autonomy rating of three times that for the same volume and and a slightly lower power usage.

No, I don't work for them, just really like the product.

[CatNewBee]

Good to know, thank you for your findings.

I have seen large Samsung Side-by-side units with ice maker installed in the salon on the larger Nautitech Open 46 Catamarans, but this beasts draw a lot of power - I had one at home for several years.

The contained units without the ice dispenser are much better insulated and use less power and Liebherr is a great brand, very good insulated too. Worth considering if one of the marine fridges fail one day. What I like is the automatic de-freezing what I miss on the installed 12V marine units.

[Bruce K]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I have one in my RV too, and I know what it takes when running it on 12V or 220V. On propane it is no issue, but inefficient on electricity. You have to make sure the exhaust goes out of the cabin and does not enrich the air with CO2. BTW both gases CO and CO2 are poisonous, CO2 is more likely to be built on a flame when sufficient amount of oxygen is provided, but CO is more dangerous.

CO2 is so poisonous they put it in BEER! If you did not have a sufficient partial pressure of CO2 in your blood you would forget to breathe. Please check your facts before posting!

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by Bruce K

CO2 is so poisonous they put it in BEER! If you did not have a sufficient partial pressure of CO2 in your blood you would forget to breathe. Please check your facts before posting!

It is the concentration in the atmosphere, more CO2 means less Oxygen to breathe.