380 S2: Lagoon 380 vs Leopard 38

[schoonerdog]

OK, I'd like to dance in the twilight zone. It really isn't a big deal for trying to figure out if a boat has plenty of water tight compartments. If you step down into the hull and can walk all the way forward to within two feet of the bow, that compartment is going to be too small to keep the boat afloat in the event of a breach amidships. If you don't have a big water tight chamber aft, then that will just confirm it. As to having "the second hull" and depending upon that to keep the boat afloat, that's ridiculous. If the breach hull has no structural bouyancy and were to sink down to the deck the water would be going a good ways onto the bridgedeck. Add a little bit of wave action and it will flood the other hull. Our particular boat has a half height bulkhead coming above the water line (actually pretty far above the water line) going to a large anchor locker on both sides. It's about 8 ft long 6 ft high and probably on average maybe 2 ft wide so guestimate about 96 cu ft of bouyancy on each side. I'm going to gasket and seal that door with acorn nuts before doing serious offshore stuff. The aft section has another maybe 12 ft of bouyancy in the transom. According to Lavranos, should I get a big hole in the boat amidships, the hull would float with the bow in the air and gradually going back to the aft cabin being lower in the water. Not great, not bad. It would be enough bouyancy that it wouldnt sink sideways. If someone though had a birth up forward, as do MANY cats, that deck would be completely awash and it probably would sink sideways. If you had something that was 10 thousand of lbs heavier than our boat as many are, then it would need far more captive structural bouyancy. And frankly I just haven't seen many boats that have that. Prout 45s do. Big water tight bulkheads for and aft with huge water tight doors with acorn nuts securing them on gaskets. No penetrations.

Will your cat sink with a mid section breach? Got a birth forward in the hull with no above water level bulkhead seperating it out? Or a forward head that also goes way up to the bows? Couple that with no large water tight engine compartment aft (if you noticed the bouyancy for the FP was provided by her aft engine compartments), and well, probably.

No one should be surprised that certain multis are sinking, especially if they are heavy, and have sacrificed that structural bouyancy for extra accomodations. No need to mention or knock certain boats, it's pretty easy to simply look at the layout and tell.

[3Eagles]

We are circumnavigating on a Lagoon 380 and love the boat. We hit rough weather (15 foot seas and 25-30 knots) for four days between Virginia and the BVis and the boat held up wonderfully. The boat was stacked with full water tanks, additional emergency fuel, four crew and loads of items to last us for years on board. Slamming was not all that frequent and when it did slam it held together as expected. We were cruising at 8-9 knots the entire way and made mostly 160 nautical mile days. I would certainly say that Lagoon has made a very ocean going catamaran, and with over 500 sold it continues to be the most popular cat out there despite it's slightly higher price. And resale is also strong.

Now that we are in the Caribbean living aboard has been a dream. We like the open kitchen "galley up" plan and the sliding doors to the cabin make the living space very airy. The boat uses parts that are redily available in most places and we find maintaining it fairly easy.

As for sail drives, we did have a problem with corrosion when we bought the boat. This was due to the previous owner not hauling and painting the sail drives appropriately. But, with regular maintenance, painting and changing of zincs you should not have any problems. Ours made it five years with neglect and was still doing fine before we bought it.

Hope this helps.

[Therapy]

I don't have anything to add Buddy, except when someone says a bulkhead separated engine compartment with a big lid (and a bunch of metal inside) is a buoyancy compartment. If it is not completely glassed in I don't consider it as buoyancy. If I had a RIB without the tubes (sealed compartment) I would not consider it "buoyant". And for those with a compartment that has a hatch with nuts and a gasket - nuts! Unless you fill it with empty 2 liter bottles. In fact I think if I had one sealed I would cut a hatch and fill it. Then it would work even if holed.

[schoonerdog]

Your dingy is bouyant, even though it's open at the top. I do like the 2 liter bottles though and plan on doing it! For the engine, a Yanmar 3JH3E which is common on a 44-45 ft catamaran is 410lbs. It would need 6.5 cu ft of space to make it neutrally bouyant. If that engine compartment is 5 ft deep 3 ft long and 3 ft wide (on average) it would be 30 cubic ft of bouyancy and have roughly 1400 lbs of extra bouyancy.

I know people are really passionate about this, but the more educated we become on things like reserve bouyancy the more manufacturers will start to meet our demands because far too many catamarans now have far too little structural bouyancy. Perhaps this lagoon 440 coming up with scuba divers on the bow helps drive home this point. And yes, it was complete sunk.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by schoonerdog

Your dingy is bouyant, even though it's open at the top. I do like the 2 liter bottles though and plan on doing it! For the engine, a Yanmar 3JH3E which is common on a 44-45 ft catamaran is 410lbs. It would need 6.5 cu ft of space to make it neutrally bouyant. If that engine compartment is 5 ft deep 3 ft long and 3 ft wide (on average) it would be 30 cubic ft of bouyancy and have roughly 1400 lbs of extra bouyancy.

I know people are really passionate about this, but the more educated we become on things like reserve bouyancy the more manufacturers will start to meet our demands because far too many catamarans now have far too little structural bouyancy. Perhaps this lagoon 440 coming up with scuba divers on the bow helps drive home this point. And yes, it was complete sunk.

My point is that that engine compartment can easily be breached and is not a sealed compartment.
I therefore do not consider it buoyancy.
The only buoyancy I consider is core in the layup and sealed compartments in the four corners at a minimum.
I am no expert but I know what I consider sealed!

PS: Great pic.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by schoonerdog

this lagoon 440 coming up with scuba divers on the bow helps drive home this point. And yes, it was complete sunk.

Whoa! Well, that pic sure puts to rest the (lengthy!) interchange in this thread about whether cats can sink. As also said in earlier posts, however, there should be no surprise to any of us that any boat will sink given the right circumstances...which leads me to ask...

Schoonerdog, what was the 'story' that sunk the Lagoon?

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by schoonerdog

Your dingy is bouyant, even though it's open at the top. I do like the 2 liter bottles though and plan on doing it! For the engine, a Yanmar 3JH3E which is common on a 44-45 ft catamaran is 410lbs. It would need 6.5 cu ft of space to make it neutrally bouyant. If that engine compartment is 5 ft deep 3 ft long and 3 ft wide (on average) it would be 30 cubic ft of bouyancy and have roughly 1400 lbs of extra bouyancy.

I know people are really passionate about this, but the more educated we become on things like reserve bouyancy the more manufacturers will start to meet our demands because far too many catamarans now have far too little structural bouyancy. Perhaps this lagoon 440 coming up with scuba divers on the bow helps drive home this point. And yes, it was complete sunk.

Is that a power cat?

[D&D]

Back toward the Leopard 38 vs Lagoon 38 header on this thread (although still very much hoping to hear the 'story' on that sunk Lagoon 420!?) I wonder if anyone can offer an insight on a possible issue of relevance to Leopard buyers...

Although there are a few Leopards in Australia in private use, Leopard do not (to my knowledge anyway?) currently promote their new boats through any dealers in Australia; sources suggest this is due to extraordinary shipping costs between Sth Africa and Australia. On the other hand, Lagoon are well estabished and competitive in Australia, as are FP, such that the shipping costs must be somehow(?) manageable...and there are, of course, several good Australian cat builders for comparisons.

Recently there appeared some advertising which suggested Leopard would be promoting their new boats in Australia. When I probed around, however, I was met with the suggestion that promotion could be a consequence of some plan(s) by Leopard to expand their production into low-cost centres in Asia.

Any scuttlebutt out there on Leopards made in Asia?

[Laidback]

Apparently China is making Leopards for R&C. Which models ???

[Laidback]

My Cat's sealed compartments are filled with small, light, screwcapped, empty, plastic bottles, so that in the event of a hole-ing the compartment will still provide significant bouyancy.

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by schoonerdog

snip
I'm going to gasket and seal that door with acorn nuts before doing serious offshore stuff.

I don't understand that thinking... Your chances of getting holed are MUCH greater close to shore. Do it now.

Another thing to consider is many multihulls are made of foam composite core with a narrow strip of solid glass along the bottom of the hulls to allow them to "dry out" without damage. (Mine is made that way). If the main hull flooded it would be lower but not sink. If all three hulls flooded it would probably sit at about hull/deck joint level.

[white rabbitt]

There is a story about a Lagoon 38 that was attacked by a 100 foot Great White Shark in the Pacific. The couple on board lost their boat and almost their lives. They escaped in their life raft and was picked up by a tramp steamer. Believe it or not.

[3Eagles]

Originally Posted by white rabbitt

There is a story about a Lagoon 38 that was attacked by a 100 foot Great White Shark in the Pacific... Believe it or not.

Actually, I don't believe it. 100 foot great white? Do you mean whale? And where's the link to this fantastic story?

[SurfNRG]

I heard they found out what shampoo the captain used that got eaten by the 100 foot Great White.., They found his head 'n shoulders on the beach! But seriously guy, a 100 foot Great White. Where are my boots, it's getting thick here. Lagoon's are Awesome!

[SvLetitgo]

But the good news is that the shark was caught and they made can with it and it's feeding the puddle jumper this year Karma I say!!!