I-pad Navigation App Dangers

[bksail]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

How old is that ipad? I have a 6yr old cheap android tablet and it has GPS.

It is not a question of age, it is a question of features. It sounds as though the iPad was not equipped with GPS. If your iPad is WiFi only, it does not have GPS, no matter how old or how new it is. Every model since the second generation that has cellular capability has GPS.

Blaming the iPad here is like blaming a chart plotter that the owner didn't connect to GPS.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by bksail

It is not a question of age, it is a question of features. It sounds as though the iPad was not equipped with GPS. If your iPad is WiFi only, it does not have GPS, no matter how old or how new it is. Every model since the second generation that has cellular capability has GPS.

Blaming the iPad here is like blaming a chart plotter that the owner didn't connect to GPS.

The age is a factor. For at least a few years, pretty much all tablets come with GPS.

So if he was using a 2010 original, it should be pointed out that it's only an issue if you use old pre-GPS models.

[royalstar]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

How old is that ipad? I have a 6yr old cheap android tablet and it has GPS.

My daughter have IPad and it does not have GPS, her IPad is, I think, 5, 6 years old, one of those first Ipads

[s/v Moondancer]

I have navigated the Humber several times using paper charts and at night it is hard work...in fog, at night, without radar, it would be be almost impossible.

This is not about an iPad failing but about experienced people failing to practice good seamanship...The ferry skipper going too fast and the launch skipper and crew doing something very dangerous in order to meet a schedule.

'There are old pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots!'

[bksail]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

The age is a factor. For at least a few years, pretty much all tablets come with GPS.

So if he was using a 2010 original, it should be pointed out that it's only an issue if you use old pre-GPS models.

I was wrong - the first generation iPads DID have GPS capability. So age is not a question, it is only a question as to whether the iPad had the cellular option. If your iPad has the cellular option (not cell service, but the ability for it), it has GPS. If you iPad is WiFi only, it does not. Any age, any model generation.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Delancey

I don't understand. It sounds like you think fault is exclusively born by the pilot, and that VTS and the captain of the Pettunia (both radar equipped) share no responsibility for the collision.

I wouldn't say it is obvious there is a danger in the way this person used the iPad because the investigative board did not state the use of the iPad was the sole reason the collision occurred. I would have to reread the article but I believe the only determination about the use of the iPad was that it gave the pilot some self confidence that was unwarranted. Otherwise I think the article said the captain of the Pettunia was traveling too fast for the conditions and failed to sound a horn.

VTS and the captain of the Pettunia both had radar and could see the pilot and yet a collision occurred. Despite these facts the focus is on the failure of the iPad? Gimmie break please. Clearly several people screwed up on this one in several different ways.

Unfortunately, the poorly written article puts the emphasis on the iPad instead of providing real insight as to why this collision occurred. Good thing for gCaptain is that they will get lots of hits and resultant revenue for their hype.

Blaming the iPad is ignoring the facts in favor of a bunch of hot button sensationalism. My take away from this one is that people who expect radar to work flawlessly in preventing collisions are just as prone to making mistakes in using it as anyone else using any other method. My other take away is that you obviously have a bias in favor of radar and against iPads. That's fine. To each his own.

Delancey , I didn't write the article and as I don't use iPad Apps for navigation, I asked if this made sense.
sorry if my title annoyed you...it was unintentional

Your analysis is pretty much the same as mine....lots of blame to go around.

In heavy fog I am very much biased towards using Radar and it still remains my verification tool when using ECS

The skipper of the wooden launch had a radar, if he had raised the mast and used it, being a professional pilot, he would have known his position and avoided the collision. Instead he relied on the iPad

The key point here is that when people rely on only one tool to navigate with, they are setting themselves up for failure, be it a human error or an electronic one.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by bksail

I was wrong - the first generation iPads DID have GPS capability. So age is not a question, it is only a question as to whether the iPad had the cellular option. If your iPad has the cellular option (not cell service, but the ability for it), it has GPS. If you iPad is WiFi only, it does not. Any age, any model generation.

Thanks for clarifying

[SV Simple Life]

I reckon the clown-pilot was using the free version of ShipFinder or similar, with a cellular data feed. The charts will be basic, and the app's AIS feed will have been potentially 10 minutes or more out of date. So this was an accident waiting to happen...in my view, going out in fog without radar was a bit like zipping off down the road in a car in the same conditions....so it wasn't an accident, really.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by bksail

I was wrong - the first generation iPads DID have GPS capability. So age is not a question, it is only a question as to whether the iPad had the cellular option. If your iPad has the cellular option (not cell service, but the ability for it), it has GPS. If your iPad is WiFi only, it does not. Any age, any model generation.

Thank you, thank you, thank you...

This same, very same, identical question comes up all the time on this and other boating forums.

It is incredible to me how few people still seem to not get it.

Thanks again.

Even the clueless idiots who sell these products have, uhm, well, no clue.

[AJ_n_Audrey]

Like Pelagic, I have Furuno MFD, and I also have an iPad with Garmin Bluecharts. The iPad has internal GPS, and in my coastal cruising, I have always found it agrees almost exactly with the Furuno. The great advantage of the iPad is ease of use. Whereas the Furuno seems almost designed to frustrate users, Bluecharts on the iPad is very straightforward. That said, I would not use the iPad as my primary.

[Davidhoy]

No navigation tool - whether it be an iPad, GPS, radar, etc - is a substitute for good seamanship! If you grow too reliant on any tool, to the point that you ignore basic skills, you're just looking for trouble. I'm not against technology, I use it extensively, I just try not to become reliant on it...

Regards,
David.

[grae]

As other posters have said, only the LTE/3G model ipads have a gps chip, wi-fi only do not and rely on wi-fi signal geolocation which as you can imagine is not very accurate.

I did a lot of research before I bought my tablet - Samsung Galaxy 10.5 - which I use with Navionics and I have used it quite successfully. The longest trip so far was to navigate from Baltimore, up the Chesapeak, through the C&D, down the Delaware, through Cape May and up to NYC with no issues - I should add that I use a garmin CP as my main nav aid and the Samsung was fully 'copasetic' throughout the trip - actually given that the Navionics maps are newer I would say it was probably more accurate but not sure I want to go without the garmin yet!

Grae

[Shrew]

My take on this is th wooden launch 'Peggotty' was operating in heavy fog with no radar. GPS is not going to see vessels in limited visibility.

This is more of a 'Radar vs No-Radar', not really an portable app issue. He would have maintained situational awareness with radar only.

Once he lost his bearings, the skipper continued rather than stopping.

The article states 'Wifi' which is different than 'cellular'. I'm not sure if the article is appreciating that distinction or not. Cellular has a much greater distance than Wifi. Howefver, does the GPS app actually use either Wifi or Cellular? Or are they pinging the satellites directly, like a permanent, marine GPS (e.g. Garmin, Raymarine, B&G)?

[bksail]

Originally Posted by Shrew

My take on this is th wooden launch 'Peggotty' was operating in heavy fog with no radar. GPS is not going to see vessels in limited visibility.

This is more of a 'Radar vs No-Radar', not really an portable app issue. He would have maintained situational awareness with radar only.

Once he lost his bearings, the skipper continued rather than stopping.

The article states 'Wifi' which is different than 'cellular'. I'm not sure if the article is appreciating that distinction or not. Cellular has a much greater distance than Wifi. Howefver, does the GPS app actually use either Wifi or Cellular? Or are they pinging the satellites directly, like a permanent, marine GPS (e.g. Garmin, Raymarine, B&G)?

Not only dense fog, but at dawn! The collision looks to have occurred about 5 or 10 minutes before sunrise. After civil twilight had ended, but still early.

GPS on an iPad will work wherever there is satellite coverage - it does not depend on cellular service or WiFi. The iPad will use WiFi (when available) to help it get location locks more quickly, but they are using the satellites directly and the WiFi is only supplemental to that.

[roverhi]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

How old is that ipad? I have a 6yr old cheap android tablet and it has GPS.

That was a question I had. The older iPads had to be the additional cost cellular capable models to have a built in GPS. With the minimal cost and almost universal use of GPS in electronics, is that still the case?? Would expect that GPS would be built into all tablets now.