How to Avoid Huge Ships

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Secondly I never said the steering ruled don't apply.

Sorry, I must have been confused when you said just that:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

that's a situation where TSS rules in the main apply rather then steering rules

No not really as for us theres one important modification...That removes the stand-on/giveway rules

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Your definition of impede is not correct , it has been interpreted to mean not cause a change of speed or direction in particular cases see overtaking etc.

Interpreted by whom? One judge's ruling does not make case law. My definition is entirely consistent with the Rules - yours makes no sense. So a ship that is not to be impeded does not need to change its course or speed while it also follows the steering rules? How does that work exactly?

[goboatingnow]

Watermann I offended by your crtitism of me. While I may be a semi professional. I do deliveries. I regard myself as professional as any OOW and in fact I am qualified under stcw95 to that standard.

My interpretation while not as suscintly put as "bewitched" was exactly as his and is based on a better understanding of the colregs then you have in my opinion

The fact is that rule 17b allows the skipped of the stand on vessel the sole responsibility to determine if the give way vessel is in fact not " giving way" and allowed him the freedom to manoeuvre in that case. That was a my point was about summed up as far as the small boat skipper was "do not stand on
Into danger " this is based on the colregs, a full understanding of them not a pick and choose

Dave

[John A]

Oakland estuary.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by John A

In the SF bay were the average depth for the entire bay is 15 feet, large vessels are forced to stay within deeeper channels, and they must maintain a speed of at least 5 knots to provide steerage. They always have the right of way!

I don't know what special rules are in effect in SF Bay, but let's keep this in perspective - the deep shipping channel is up to 3 miles wide.

Chart 18650

[goboatingnow]

Lodesman my comment said that in a TSS ( and I was speaking from the point of a sailing boat , the TSS ruled apply in the "main" rather then the steering rules. What I meant by that ( and I stick to my interpretation of impede, thank you") was that, the not impede rules , the crossing at right angles rules etc mean that typical stand on situation with a sailboat does not generally apply in a TSS in a crossing situation. Hence the steering rules I
Clear vis etc are not normally in play. I never said that they don't apply at all . I maybe guilty of some over simplification but I always find it hard to judge the level of expertise on a thread like this and whether I should be detailed or general

Dave

Dave

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by bewitched

How it works in my universe:
If the give way vessel doesn’t take any action, Colregs allow the stand on vessel to take action (by manoeuvre alone) under 17b.

What I take from this is that if a risk of collision exists:
- Both the stand on and give way vessels have opportunity to take action to avoid a collision
- That opportunity exists over a significant period of time for both vessels (assuming Rule 5 is was satisfied initially).
- Neither vessel has ‘right of way’ at any time
- The stand on vessel is not required to stand on indefinitely
- The stand on vessel is not required to stand on until the situation described in 17b arises.

There seems to be some confusion over rule 17(a):

(i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and speed.
(ii) The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her manoeuvre alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules.

There are two distinct periods here - in the first, the stand-on vessel must keep her course and speed and allow the give-way vessel the time to assess the situation and take action; the second, when the give-way vessel has been given sufficient and reasonable opportunity to take action, but apparently has not, then the stand-on vessel may take action to avoid - this is not a license for the stand-on vessel to forego its 17(a)(i) responsibility to maintain course and speed simply based on a whim, or for the sake of convenience - where practicable, any alteration should be made only after attempting to ascertain the other vessel's intentions over VHF and/or sounding 5 short blasts. Realistically, you should never allow a situation to develop to the final stage, where 17(b) requires the stand-on vessel to take whatever action necessary to avoid collision.

[goboatingnow]

Watermann despite what you said VTS does legally control traffic in certain cases it's not just a monitoring service

For example the VTS area at the port of Rotterdam

"
3. Traffic instructions

Traffic instructions, issued in accordance with legal regulations, are binding orders imposed on shipping
traffic by the VTS authority.

"
If that isn't " control" well..

Dave

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

What I meant by that ( and I stick to my interpretation of impede, thank you") was that, the not impede rules , the crossing at right angles rules etc mean that typical stand on situation with a sailboat does not generally apply in a TSS in a crossing situation. Hence the steering rules I
Clear vis etc are not normally in play. I never said that they don't apply at all . I maybe guilty of some over simplification but I always find it hard to judge the level of expertise on a thread like this and whether I should be detailed or general

Dave,

This is where our interpretations diverge. Once a crossing situation develops, it is then that the steering rules necessarily come into effect - this is the same in open ocean or in a TSS. The not impede rule simply states that small vessels should avoid creating such situations, but where they do happen, they are to follow the steering rules as far as possible while not impeding the vessel following the scheme. It is easy enough to imagine such events happening when a sailboat could be ghosting along at a couple of knots crossing a TSS, and a large ship approaches at 25+ knots.

Kevin

[John A]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I don't know what special rules are in effect in SF Bay, but let's keep this in perspective - the deep shipping channel is up to 3 miles wide. From the Bay Bridge north to the Richmond Bridgeb
Chart 18650

Oh really? How wide is the shipping channal between the towers at each of the five bridges going toward Sacramento? How wide is the shipping "ditch" to Sacromento? The Oakland estuary? North of Angel Island?

But then you said "up to" so that covers you.

Please memorize where the shipping channals are. Know where the big ships travel. If you're about to cross to the east of the GG and you see a commercial vessal traveling north along the west side of Treasure Island, He's going to turn and be where you are in less than 20 minutes.

Oakland is one of three container ship ports on the west coast and transfers containers to rail for shipment to the interior of the US 24/7 from half a dozen stations, I think there are over 10 refinerys that tankers are transfering oil from Alaska 24/7.

At least six vessals transit the GG on a Normal Saturday.

I've been on the bay one or two times a month for 12 years. I really don't want to hear about what the rules say or the charts show. I have up to seven people on my boat and it's my job to see that they all return to shore and want to go out on the bay with me again.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Prerequisite

The person who mentioned that VHF is only used in rare occasions is just plain wrong.

That's not what was said. Read post #65.
Do you honestly call up every vessel you alter course for? Do you honestly get a call from every vessel that alters course for you? What is to be gained in making a radio call for a head-on situation where the obvious choice is a red-to-red? Do you honestly believe that every commercial vessel that alters course for a sailboat in open water, bothers to call up that sailboat to say "yeah I'm following the rules"?

[goboatingnow]

There are two distinct periods here - in the first, the stand-on vessel must keep her course and speed and allow the give-way vessel the time to assess the situation and take action; the second, when the give-way vessel has been given sufficient and reasonable opportunity to take action, but apparently has not, then the stand-on vessel may take action to avoid - this is not a license for the stand-on vessel to forego its 17(a)(i) responsibility to maintain course and speed simply based on a whim, or for the sake of convenience - where practicable, any alteration should be made only after attempting to ascertain the other vessel's intentions over VHF and/or sounding 5 short blasts. Realistically, you should never allow a situation to develop to the final stage, where 17(b) requires the stand-on vessel to take whatever action necessary to avoid collision.

Sorry you are extending the colregs into areas it doesn't go.

Para (2) allows the stand on vessel the freedom to act should it ( and only it) decide that the give way vessel is not taking action so. It does not define time periods or how such determinations are made, it leaves it up to the stand on vessel to soley decide by whatever methods it beleives it should apply


This is by basis for saying the rules allow a small boat the room to form that opinion based on whatever criteria maybe applicable to that boat at that time. I agree is not a charter for erratic behaviour. Say I the stand on vessel in a sailing boat ,In a crossing situation , and I become uncomfortable thAt as I close ( to a distance I determine) the give way vessel is not responding then I am free to maneourver as I see fit


Also someone mentioned turns to port being " illegal". The colregs merely day that turns to port " should be avoided ".

Dave

[goboatingnow]

This is where our interpretations diverge. Once a crossing situation develops, it is then that the steering rules necessarily come into effect - this is the same in open ocean or in a TSS. The not impede rule simply states that small vessels should avoid creating such situations, but where they do happen, they are to follow the steering rules as far as possible while not impeding the vessel following the scheme. It is easy enough to imagine such events happening when a sailboat could be ghosting along at a couple of knots crossing a TSS, and a large ship approaches at 25+ knots.

What I implied was that if you broke the impede rule. Then the steering rules then apply. Also for other classes of vessels where the impede rule does not apply of course in that case the steering rules apply ( or continue to be applied)
Dave

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by John A

Oh really? How wide is the shipping channal between the towers at each of the five bridges going toward Sacramento? How wide is the shipping "ditch" to Sacromento? The Oakland estuary? North of Angel Island?

But then you said "up to" so that covers you.

Please memorize where the shipping channals are. Know where the big ships travel. If you're about to cross to the east of the GG and you see a commercial vessal traveling north along the west side of Treasure Island, He's going to turn and be where you are in less than 20 minutes.
(blah blah blah).

Yeah, let's pick the section that's several miles long, and roughly 3 miles wide, narrowing to a little over half a mile under the GG bridge. There are lot's of challenging harbours in the world; San Fran presents a number of challenges (I've only been there a few times), but it's not even in the top ten. If memory serves, we didn't enjoy any special rules of the road, didn't have to stay at five knots, and were not particularly hampered by our 30-ft draught.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Sorry you are extending the colregs into areas it doesn't go.

Also someone mentioned turns to port being " illegal". The colregs merely day that turns to port " should be avoided ".

Dave,

I highly recommend you invest in a good guide to the rules, such as Cockcroft and Lameijer Guide to the Collision Avoidance Rules: Amazon.ca: A N Cockcroft, J N F Lameijer: Books

In order for the stand-on vessel to make the determination that the give-way vessel is not taking action, they have to allow the give-way vessel the opportunity to do so - it's implied in the rule, and guides such as the one above explain that.

I don't believe anyone said a turn to port is "illegal" - I brought up the point and said there was a specific rule that was meant to avoid such action and tried to explain the rationale. I believe someone reiterated that point.

[Prerequisite]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

That's not what was said. Read post #65.
Do you honestly call up every vessel you alter course for? Do you honestly get a call from every vessel that alters course for you? What is to be gained in making a radio call for a head-on situation where the obvious choice is a red-to-red? Do you honestly believe that every commercial vessel that alters course for a sailboat in open water, bothers to call up that sailboat to say "yeah I'm following the rules"?

I was actually talking about your earlier post (#49): "VHF is generally only used when there is confusion or someone wants to do something out of the ordinary - 95% of the time, commercial vessels just follow the rules with no need to make a radio call."

I do think you are wrong to say the radio is only used 5% of the time, and yes- I honestly call every vessel who's intentions are unclear to me. No, I don't honestly believe every commercial vessel that alters course for a sailboat calls up the sailboat to say they are following the rules. If it looks like a close crossing though, I will call them. You might not like my practice, but it's the safe thing to do. It's not required, and often not even expected- but arguing that clarifying things over the radio is improper (if that's what you are doing) isn't really worth your time. I only suggested it as a technique to prevent oneself from entering an unsafe situation. As a recreational sailor with an Unlimited Tonnage International Deck Officer license, I'll stick with using the radio- After all, it's my technique and that's what the radio is there for.