is Flying the US flag safe anymore?

[Raven]

Originally Posted by skipperaris

I believe there is also an Earth flag day which is celebrated on the spring equinox or have I got it wrong?
Raven could tell us more.

The Earth flag is not an “official” flag for obvious reasons (there is no official governing body over Earth). It was designed in 1969 and uses an image from Apollo 17. It has since been associated with Earth Day.

There are two different observations of Earth Day, an international recognition and, in the U.S., an April 22nd observation.

The International Earth Day is celebrated on the vernal equinox to mark the moment that spring begins in the Northern Hemisphere and autumn in the Southern Hemisphere. (John McConnell first introduced the idea of a global holiday called Earth Day at a UNESCO Conference on the Environment in 1969, the same year that he designed the Earth flag.)

The U.S. April 22nd Earth Day began in 1970 as a large-scale demonstration for environmental reform. The date was chosen to be coincidental with Arbor Day, a national tree planting holiday.

[swagman]

Re hiding the US Flag in Muslim countries.......

I asked yesterday if there was an significance to so many US flagged yachts in Turkey and was told most belong to Turks.

Apparently there are both tax and legal reasons why a Turk who buys a used yacht from a non Turk national, cannot register that yacht in Turkey. The chap I spoke with seemed to know what he was talking about and indicated most Turks find it easier and cheaper to register such 'overseas' vessles in Delaware, USA - and accordingly fly the US flag.

So getting back to the orginal question, if Turkish sailors have no worries flying the US flag, it kind of indicates it really is not an issue for US sailors to do likewise.

Cheers
JOHN

[skipperaris]

You are right Swagman.
The same is the case here in Greece. Many of the more expensive motor yachts are flying an American, Panama, Cyprus etc flag for convenience.
Such a yacht is a tax asset and people don't want the taxman after them . Your blog is not at all boring by the way. It is GOOD!

[hellosailor]

My first thought is that if I were afraid to fly my flag someplace, I probably wouldn't spend much time there.

But I wonder why a US flag for a Turkish vessel, if this may not be a misunderstanding of how/why these vessels are flagged. If the vessel is US documented, IIRC it must be *owned* by a US citizen or if owned by a corporation, a US-native corporation. And I can't see that setting up a US-owned corporation would be of any advantage to a Turk. The US flag is not known to be a flag of convenience, compared to Panama, Liberia, and other commercial havens for ships.
Unless some of those yachts are really owned by US-based charter companies and those are simply good waters for them to operate in?

[Pura Vida]

hellosailor. My thought exactly. If someone is afraid of a country it would be unlikely that one would have a good time there even of they worked up the courage to go.

As for US flags in Turkish ports. It is possible that Turkey is a popular place to escape for the VAT layover period. I don't know the specifics but a yacht in EU waters for a certain period of time needs to pay the VAT. By going to Turkey (did they ever settle and join the EU) one might avoid the VAT. Turkey has a lot of Muslims but is a secular nation.

[swagman]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

But I wonder why a US flag for a Turkish vessel, if this may not be a misunderstanding of how/why these vessels are flagged. If the vessel is US documented, IIRC it must be *owned* by a US citizen or if owned by a corporation, a US-native corporation. And I can't see that setting up a US-owned corporation would be of any advantage to a Turk. The US flag is not known to be a flag of convenience, compared to Panama, Liberia, and other commercial havens for ships.
Unless some of those yachts are really owned by US-based charter companies and those are simply good waters for them to operate in?

It was the Turkish marina manager here in Ayvalik who clarified to me why so many US flags fly, including one on his yacht.

He explained it was much easier and cheaper to get a secondhand overseas yacht - his he purchased from a Swiss chap - registered in Delaware as opposed to Turkey, Switzerland. Panama or UK. He said they all used specialist firms in Istanbul to organise this - and it is definately worth doing also for local tax reasons.

He did not clarify further, and indeed you may be correct and the registration firm may also help set up US companies with the owner as the stock holder.........but it is clearly common practice here in Turkey.

In this marina with possibly only 50 boats in the water this time of year, 10 are US flagged. All are now registered in Delaware. And all purchased by Turks from overseas people of other nationalities.

Cheers
JOHN

[hellosailor]

John-
Very curious. I wonder if they are actually being resold by way of "stock transfers" as opposed to outright sales, so that they are also evading sales taxes and other issues because they are only "buying" a US corporation which happens to own a yacht.<G>
Delaware corporations were very popular in the northeast US as a way to avoid local taxes in the US, until a few years ago (well, maybe 20 years by now<G>) when the taxmen started to get smarter and started walking the docks and posting "arrests" on the boats.

[coot]

Delaware is a US state that is fairly business friendly. A Delaware corporation must have a physical presence in Delaware, but that presence can be an agent. The agent has to be authorized to accept legal documents on behalf of the corporation, but doesn't have to do much else. i.e. If you sue the corporation, they have somebody to give the supoena to. There are several businesses in Delaware that will set up a corporation for you and act as an agent.

b.t.w. This business friendly environment is why an extraordinary number of US credit card payments are mailed to Wilmington, DE.

A boat belonging to a US corporation is a US vessel. It must fly the US flag, is subject to US law, etc. By law, the captain of a US vessel must be a US citizen, except in the case of recreational vessels.

If the boat belongs to a corporation, you can sell the corporation without transferring ownership of the boat. That is, the boat still belongs to the same owner -- the corporation. This makes a fine tax dodge if you want to sell the boat without paying taxes on it, and corporation agents advertise it in boating magazines.

So, for example, if your local law exempts "foreign owned" boats from taxes, there may be some benefit to selling your boat to your very own Delaware corporation.

Maryland, US (the state where I live) declares that any boat in Maryland for more than 6 months (or is it 183 days? something like that.) is liable for Maryland tax. Out of state registration doesn't help if the boat is actually here.

[Ram]

Coot you are exactly right and I might add its fairly inexpensive, I just had this done & it cost about $350 usd, with about a $250 per year fee(total)- also helps gives you ammoniumity along with helping protect you from liability. Allowing you to deduct the whole boating experince as a deduction if you need it as a loss is a bonus along with allowing you to help aviod paying use taxs in the state your living in (im in Florida) -thats a different subject that requires some creative thinking

Ram

[Chris R]

Ram check the Cayman Islands websites. There is allot of info there for registering of boats. Taxes would be the main reason. You also (I believe) are not subject to allot of USCG polices. Maybe someone out there knows more. I do agree with you about flying the US flag for safety reasons. But I don't know if it holds much merit. As far as not flying a flag I guess you could do that, but it might get you an extra eye from the port authorities. Now to get off the subject! If you don't like it in the US leave!!!! I have been all over this world and have not found a better place to live. I don't agree with everything our leaders do, but it sure beats living in allot of other places. Oh and by the way yes flying the flag on a boat upside down is a sign of distress.

Damn Liberals!!!!!

[hellosailor]

"Allowing you to deduct the whole boating experince as a deduction if you need it as a loss is a bonus along with allowing you to help aviod paying use taxs in the state your living in "
Ram, don't believe everything you hear. That doesn't work in the US and hasn't for a long time. Florida, like every east coast state, knows which boats are real and which aren't. Keep a "Delaware" boat in Florida for the season and you'll receive a letter in the mail or nailed to the mast [sic] invitig you to a tax audit, followed by another one from the IRS if your "business" hasn't made a profit and paid taxes on it during any 3 of 5 years. Yes, the IRS has rules to declare your corporation as a hobby--or a sham--and then go after you for the full amount due, personally.
Tax men may be dull, but they aren't dumb. Tax dodgers tend to be creative--but not smart enough to beat the tax men. Not for the long run.

[Brent Swain]

More US boats cruising Canada , fly the courtesy flag, but no US flag. They get more respect (deservedly so) Than those waving a huge US flag in our faces. I have a US flag that I use for a hankerchief.
When a foreign dictator tells Canadians that we need their permission to fly between Canadian cities and wont tell us whether we'll be allowed to board the plane until we've dumped our money, irretrievably on a ticket,of course we get pissed off.
The US , having an appointed monarch , put in power by Diebold in a rigged election, ignoring all international laws and the civil rights protection in their own constitution, obeying only whatever laws and international agreements they feel like, stopped being a democracy or a great nation long ago.
The US supreme court in the 1800s ruled that the US government has no constitutional right to dictate what countries US citrizens may or may not visit. That has been ignored ever since.
Leaving is an option many cruisers have taken. Friends returning from Mexico say that many USanians there are in exile , to enjoy the feedom they lost at home.
Brent

[Chris R]

Bring your hankerchief to Detroit. SO I CAN WATCH YOU WIPE YOUR BLOODY LIBERAL NOSE ON IT.

I'am sure I won't be the only one in line.

[Alan Wheeler]

Gentlemen, it would be greatly appreciated if you all keep the political arguments off of here. If you want to argue, then do it via Email.
Thank-you for your co-oporation.

[Chris R]

Sorry Wheels!!!!!!

My MOP bleeds RED,WHITE and BLUE.