Illegally Discharging Waste in FL

[onestepcsy37]

Laws are made for the guidance of wise men,
And the blind obedience of fools.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by onestepcsy37

Laws are made for the guidance of wise men,
And the blind obedience of fools.

Do the blind get a discount on the fine ?

[goboatingnow]

Use your own moral compass and live true and you will never go wrong

You left out , having deep pockets to pay all the fines that result In You " living true "

Dave

[captainKJ]

lots of the Mega Yachts in florida dump there waste on the outgoing tide at night while in the ship yards. Over 15 years in the industry. Personally I would never eat any crab or fish that comes out of the New River for that reason

[boatsail]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

You left out , having deep pockets to pay all the fines that result In You " living true "

Dave

No need for me to have deep pockets...I bag ant tag my crap and it goes in the marina dumpster.....

[capngeo]

Ya know guys the "be nice rule" is getting pretty trashed in this thread. Please think twice before you post!

[foggysail]

OK Don, I agree with the ethics stuff.

Buts and buts---- I don't recommend peeing over the rail around here because one of those whacky environmental guys that wear jack boots, badge and a gun might whack you on you pee pee for exposing

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by captainKJ

lots of the Mega Yachts in florida dump there waste on the outgoing tide at night while in the ship yards. Over 15 years in the industry. Personally I would never eat any crab or fish that comes out of the New River for that reason

Boston Harbor was one of the most polluted harbors in the country until Judge Mazzone ordered it to be cleaned up back in the 80s. That did not deter harvesting the best lobsters that came from traps in Boston Harbor!

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by Richard_W

There is a small difference starting with the concept of PUBLIC thingy. Free use of roads, schools, etc helps everybody ... a free marine pumpout would help just a few percent of the population ... it ain't the public thingy ...

Universal usage isn't the definition of a "PUBLIC thingy". I selected public items that are nearly universally used because the odds were pretty good that everyone reading uses them. In the US "public" transit is used by about 5% of the population (http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/acsbr09-5.pdf) but is supported by tax dollars paid by everyone. The rural farmers in North Dakota may never see public transit, yet they participate in paying for it because collectively we have decided to do so (and not everyone may agree with that decision or be happy with it).

Again in the US, something like 7.3% own boats (93% < 26 ft) and 75 million go boating each year (http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/website.../14boatus.pdf). So, it is a reasonable discussion to have about whether free pumpouts ought to be a "public" service. Sometimes we decide that even though a public service may be used by few it is valuable for the many.

[hellosailor]

" The rural farmers in North Dakota may never see public transit, yet they participate in paying for it because collectively we have decided to do so "
Yes, and those farmers also get their mail delivered because the folks using public transportation a thousand miles away have subsidized their mail delivery and their phones and other things.
It is either calling "creeping socialism" or "for the public good" and the concept of free public pumpout stations is supposed to be for the public good, because it ensures the public can go swimming without worrying about floaters or bacteria.
Whether it all works out to be fair in the end, that's something else again. That's a matter of "what's fair" and as they often forget to teach in grade school, the world is not a fair place.

Public health, waste management, free vaccinations...Somewhere in the Dakotas, some farmer is saying "Why can't those damned boaters put n their own septic tanks? We did."

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Don L

I don't feel either is legal! Just because a boat reg does not specifically address something doesn't make it legal.

Yes, actually, it does. The fundamental concept underlying all criminal law in the United States is that if something is not specifically illegal, then it is legal. We don't simply assume that everything that everyone does is illegal except when there is a law that permits it!

Of course, if you are peeing off the back of your boat and someone else sees you, then you may well be charged with some offense like "public urination," or "public indecency," or something else along those lines. But you will NOT be charged with any violation of marine sanitation laws, because you will NOT have violated any marine sanitation laws.

None of the marine sanitation laws say anything at all about peeing directly into the water. Hence, because it is not specifically illegal, it is legal. That's how the law works. Don't believe me, though. I encourage you to seek out and ask an attorney. They will confirm what I am saying: if the law does not specifically say that something is illegal, then it is not.

Now, what the marine sanitation laws do talk about is dumping waste that has been collected, and about the requirements for a proper collection system. That is why peeing into a cup, and then pouring that cup overboard, WOULD specifically be illegal. It would be illegal dumping, and it would not be a proper collection system.

It's stupid, but that is the law.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Moonpie

That a sailing school could so blatantly thumb their nose at the law...

I would hope that, at the very least, you complained to the operators of the school. And if this was a class certified by any other body (ASA, USS) then you should most definitely complain to them also. The certifying body, most especially, has an incentive to maintain their standards and it sounds like this instructor had no standards at all.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"Do people feel it is "legal" for someone to pee or dump waste in their yard? "
You seem confused over "legal" Don. Legal means legal, something defined in the legal codes, and whether people "feel" or "think" something might be legal has got nothing to do with whether it is.

You can pee over the rail. That's legal unless you know of some statute that makes it illegal ...

Not in most places.

Public urination is made a crime in many jurisdictions.

Public urination laws are primarily governed by state and local laws, which vary by jurisdiction. It is possible to be charged with littering, public nuisance, indecent exposure, disorderly conduct, or other law, if the locality doesn't have a law specifically addressing public urination.

So, for instance: Gainesville (Florida) Ordinances

Sec. 17-8. Urinating or defecating.

(a) Prohibitions and exceptions. It shall be unlawful for any person to urinate or defecate in, or in view of, a public place other than one set aside and designated for that particular purpose.

(b) Public place defined. Any place where the conduct may reasonably be expected to be viewed or could be viewed by others is a public place.

(c) Penalty for violation. Any person who violates the provisions of this section shall be punished as provided in section 1-9 of this Code.

Sec. 1-9. General penalty; abatement.

(a) Whenever in this Code or in any ordinance of the city or in any rule or regulation adopted pursuant to this Code, any act is prohibited or is made or declared to be unlawful or an offense, misdemeanor or public nuisance, or whenever in such Code, ordinance, rule or regulation the doing of any act is required or the failure to do any act is declared to be unlawful, where no specific penalty, is provided therefor, the violation of any such provision of this Code or any ordinance, rule or regulation shall be punished by a fine not exceeding five hundred dollars ($500.00) or imprisonment for a term not exceeding sixty (60) days, or by both such fine and imprisonment. Each day any violation of any provision of this Code or of any ordinance shall continue shall constitute a separate offense.

(b) In addition to the penalty provided in subsection (a), any condition which has been declared a nuisance may be abated as provided in this Code.

[svHyLyte]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

... I encourage you to seek out and ask an attorney. They will confirm what I am saying: if the law does not specifically say that something is illegal, then it is not.

The legal system in the US and most western countries is Proscriptive. That which is Proscribed--i.e. prohibited--is illegal. Anything/Everything else is legal (although perhaps neither ethical and/or desirable). Laws are codified and certain behaviors Proscribed for the benefit of those that have no common sense and/or cannot curb their own behaviors in consideration of others. Laws are necessary because many (most?) cannot live by the Old Testament admonishment that one should do nothing to another--directly or indirectly--that one would not have done to oneself.

GordMay's post, above, evidences the foregoing rather than disputing it. In the example he provides, the behavior is explicitly Prohibited.

The big seller/advertising watchword today is bio-degradable. Human, or animal or marine animal waste is the ultimate biodegradable. After all, it really is nothing more than pre-processed meat or vegetable products that have been partially oxidized and certain nutrients extracted. Not many think twice about tossing an apple core off-board reasoning that it's bio-degradable, but get all in a tizzy about discharging the remains of the apple flesh because it's passed through a human, been partially digested, and then passed through an MSD. The two, rational, arguments against discharges are the possibility of potentially harmful intestinal biotics having been introduced to the waste material and/or concentrations of the waste in a limited area. A properly functioning Type 1 MSD deals with the biotics, not discharging waste in restricted waters deals with excessive concentration. How hard is that?

The big deal in the Keys is not the waste material itself. It is the damage that the resulting concentrations of nutrients and even moreso, the chemicals used to treat such waste do to the marine life/reefs. On the other hand, carrying on about yacht waste discharge is rather superflous considering the 40K+ GPD waste treatment plant discharges per day by just a single community of rather nebulous repute in the Keys, Non?

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

Jeezus, the sense of entitlement displayed here is amazing. You do not have a constitutional right to free pumpouts courtesy of the American taxpayer. It's your sh*t, you deal with it as mandated by law. Too bad if there is a cost associated with it. Find another sport to be involved with if you don't like it.

You also don't have a "right" to swim (or work!) in sh#t free water.

The easy (and cheap) option is to make direct discharge legal (and for the private sector to meet the demand for pump outs) on the basis that recreational pooping is not actually a pollution issue (being unpleasant in thought or in sight / smell is not the same as actually being a problem)......proof that it is not a problem? Well, no one is actually spending time and money cleaning up the sea after discharges (but that will probably come ).

If, as a society, folks want to make a collective effort (not the same as "socialism" ) to make the sea "cleaner" then the best bang for the buck will be from dealing with the sh#t (of all types) that flows from the shore, both sewage and chemical etc run off........... But the bills will be bigger (even if paid for in prevention by those who do pollute) and therefore not so popular with those who pay the politicians - plus not so easy to demonstrate that the Govt is "doing something" by catching eco-criminal poopers .

Over here we are free pooping society - and oddly enough we don't poop in our own backyards just because it is legal to do so. IMO "you" live somewhere that is not the same then it's time to move........

......although not directly related, our local dump (errr, recycling centre ) is free to the public for non-commercial use. Obviously that costs money (they could charge as the UK does) - but it also saves more money by helping prevent some folks dumping rubbish elsewhere, which has a cost for clean up (as well to investigate / prosecute)......some may call free dumping as socialism - others call it using some smarts to save money.......IMO same approach (using smarts) can be used with pooping .

Of course if folks really care about the impact of their poop on the environment they would bag it up and take it home with them. or at least mail it to Greenpeace etc .