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Sandero · 01-03-2017, 17:16

I am about to do a trial period for my 3rd set in about 12 years... Aud suggests a $5k mid level Oticon w/ BT. Present ones are not working well, one seems to be broken and devours batts like there's no tomorrow. But that's in my good ear... bad ear device seems to work. They are 6yrs old.

Both were not working (batts died) yesterday a project mtg. I managed OK... but background noise of any type makes content discrimination almost impossible. Soft speakers are hard to understand even with the devices. My sis refuses to raise her voice... lovely!

I will look into the Audicus tom and will get my audiogram when I do the trial with the Oticon. Unless they blow me away... I will pass. I will send the broken pair to Unitron for back ups... If the Audicus don't blow me away... I hope I can return them. Insurance won't do anything... so this is a big hit.

I am home alone and do put them in... maybe to speak on the phone... but speak phone help. Why wear them when you are no conversing? Stereo can be turned loud enough to hear.

Don't bother much with restaurants and never with noisy ones... I find opera at the Met does not dazzle and so i listen to music on recordings.

Deaf is bad... hearing loss is even worse. I'll report back in less than a month.

Snore · 02-03-2017, 05:38

Guys

I am confused. Are these "behind the ear" or "in the ear devices"?

While the mail order devices can be programmed remotely, I cannot envision how a DIY ear mold can be done for the in the ear device.

Thanks

fredw · 02-03-2017, 07:19

I wear one behind the ear and recently lost it in wash so I appreciate the web site

Oc1 · 02-03-2017, 07:45

Great thread. As a career construction worker I have significant hearing loss and know that its only a matter of time before I have to bite the bullet and get a set. We are about 9 years away from retiring so I figure cruising will coincide with hearing aids.
I didn't think about all the downsides until last year. We bought a Catalina 22 at auction to hold us over until we are ready to buy our cruising boat. While picking it up on Coronado Island my 75 year old father in law was holding the boat next to the ramp while I backed the truck in. The wind came up and instead of wrapping the rope around a cleat he tried to just hang on, and the boat blowing away from the dock pulled him in. He was only under for half a second but 6k worth of hearing aids done! It was huge wake up call for my future. Not sure how well they will work for me as I like to spend lots of time in the water.

fredw · 02-03-2017, 07:54

I have some loss in both ears but my right ear is considerably less so that the one I use 3k with test paid by insurance but retired now and not ready to spend that out of pocket. Currently sailing Cape Dory 30 but restoring Morgan Tiger Cub Charlie's second boat he built Ginger anyway this was good information thank you

Sandero · 02-03-2017, 09:46

I just a fair amount of time on the phone with an Audicus rep.

This is the deal...

They have aids which are similar to the other big names... They just don't sell them through bricks and mortar stores... which often have and ENT or someone qualified and the equipment to produce an audiogram of your hearing.

ALL HEARING AIDS ARE BASICALLY AMPLIFIERS....The better ones have multi channels... like the equalizers on an expensive sound board or audio amplifier.. such as

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...pf_rd_i=292564

which is 5 channels. Hearing aids can have up to 8 or maybe more... more channels, more amplifier circuits. more money (more to go wrong too).

The "audiologist" tunes the channels to compensate for your hearing loss in each range in each ear essentially boosting the amplification to provide more "energy" and get all frequencies seeing the same level of modulation.

Noise cancelling programs are mostly BS. It's your brain that does the sorting out of content from noise... because most noise is randomized and over modulated usually and your brain can find the coherent patterns of speech or music and reject the randomized noise... kinda. The is a high order of processing which the hearing aid can't really do. What they do is alter the equalizer profile to add more "power" to the channels in the speech range and attenuate the others... kinda.

So Audicus is not much different from the big names. It's just about 25% of the price. It has a 45 day trial period... and you would have to send the unit back to get them to retune it to a updated audiogram... your new hearing profile... which WILL degrade over time.... not unlike your eyeglass perscription.

So since you can't walk in for a visit to get an adjustment... you need to send them back with the new audiogram which you will have to pay for from and ENT.

They are located in NYC but you can't go there for any purpose... they don't do hearing tests... and I am sure they don't do repairs there either. The product is made in Germany.

There you have it.

WaynesWorld · 02-03-2017, 12:07

https://www.phonakpro.com/content/da...d_028-0771.pdf Did anyone know that your hearing is always worse in your left ear ? Driving with the window down since you were 15. It is more prevalent in warmer climates. I have brand new 2016 Phonak hearing aids 7800 dollars. They are better in the wind than my 2010 models. Some interesting features are the afore mentioned wireless television adapter that is a marriage saver indeed. They also convert cell phone conversations to stereo through both devices. My solution to very windy days has been to wear a thin silk bandana over my ears similar in effect to the fuzzy thing used by professionals. We are also exxxploring using a wireless headset and Dragon speech recognition software that would be relayed to an ipad at the helm or below deck. With some manipulation the tv adapter could be connected to the communications equipment onboard and relayed to your hearing aids.

derfy · 09-03-2017, 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snore

Guys

I am confused. Are these "behind the ear" or "in the ear devices"?

While the mail order devices can be programmed remotely, I cannot envision how a DIY ear mold can be done for the in the ear device.

Thanks

The devices I got from Audicus over the Internet were "behind the ear". A thin wire runs over the top of my ear and into the ear canal, where the tiny speak is ... inside a flexible dome.

They programmed these device before they sent them to me, using an audiogram (i.e. a test result) that I had from a paid visit to an audiologist, that scanned and emailed to them. They did not program the device over the Internet ... it would be cool if they good.

derfy · 09-03-2017, 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandero

I just a fair amount of time on the phone with an Audicus rep.

This is the deal...

They have aids which are similar to the other big names... They just don't sell them through bricks and mortar stores... which often have and ENT or someone qualified and the equipment to produce an audiogram of your hearing.

ALL HEARING AIDS ARE BASICALLY AMPLIFIERS....The better ones have multi channels... like the equalizers on an expensive sound board or audio amplifier.. such as

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...pf_rd_i=292564

which is 5 channels. Hearing aids can have up to 8 or maybe more... more channels, more amplifier circuits. more money (more to go wrong too).

The "audiologist" tunes the channels to compensate for your hearing loss in each range in each ear essentially boosting the amplification to provide more "energy" and get all frequencies seeing the same level of modulation.

Noise cancelling programs are mostly BS. It's your brain that does the sorting out of content from noise... because most noise is randomized and over modulated usually and your brain can find the coherent patterns of speech or music and reject the randomized noise... kinda. The is a high order of processing which the hearing aid can't really do. What they do is alter the equalizer profile to add more "power" to the channels in the speech range and attenuate the others... kinda.

So Audicus is not much different from the big names. It's just about 25% of the price. It has a 45 day trial period... and you would have to send the unit back to get them to retune it to a updated audiogram... your new hearing profile... which WILL degrade over time.... not unlike your eyeglass perscription.

So since you can't walk in for a visit to get an adjustment... you need to send them back with the new audiogram which you will have to pay for from and ENT.

They are located in NYC but you can't go there for any purpose... they don't do hearing tests... and I am sure they don't do repairs there either. The product is made in Germany.

There you have it.

Yes, this a very accurate and detailed description of how Audicus works.

The high end of their line is actually this device...the Hansaton The soundHD S312. It is a very good device.

http://www.hansaton.de

I am about 40 days into my trial and will keep these devices. I am ordering my first replacement kit .. $20 ... new domes and new wax guards (little plastic tubes in front of the speakers that tend to clog with wax over time).

If I want, for $50, I send them the devices and they replace all of this and clean the devices thoroughly ... I will do that in a few more months.

Since I saved about 5 thousand dollars, this seems like pretty reasonable prices.

BTW, they are only noisy in a headwind. If you are reaching or flying the chute, they should be fine. Me... seems I as always bashing to weather.

Sandero · 09-03-2017, 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by derfy

The devices I got from Audicus over the Internet were "behind the ear". A thin wire runs over the top of my ear and into the ear canal, where the tiny speak is ... inside a flexible dome.

They programmed these device before they sent them to me, using an audiogram (i.e. a test result) that I had from a paid visit to an audiologist, that scanned and emailed to them. They did not program the device over the Internet ... it would be cool if they good.

This is one of my main beefs with this industry and the audiologists who "program" these devices.

This is very basic stuff that an intelligent person could do because it really very simple. The audiologist scans the patient's (customer's) audiogram into a computer which can bring it up on a screen and appears like a graph with the low frequency on the left ranging to the high on the right. The audio gram is the frequence "response" for each ear. Let's say you simply for whatever reason could not hear 440cps... the audiogram would show 0 amplitude response at 440 and so on. The audio gram looks like the profiile of a mountain range with peaks and valleys representing your ear's frequency response.

What the audiologist does... is he can COMPARE your ear's response to a "flat" or balanced or whatever term you want to use... response curve.

Think of a audio amplifier. You want it to amplify EACH frequency the same amount or in way that the human ear can process the signal. Audio equipment... mics and speakers and ampliers are meant to have a flat response at all frequencies. If they are modulating the amplitude of the higher frequencies... the sound will have a "tinny" quality... or the bass... a booomy quality.

We all are familiar with adjusting the treble and the base on a stereo set or entertainment system. treble and base divide the audio spectrum into 2 channels. Think of a rubber band stretched between two points one being the low frequency and and the other being the high frequency end. To change the response push the rubber band up or pull it down at two, 3. 4 or even 16 places. Flat level flat rubber band is a flat frequency response... peaks and valleys are attenuating or damping the response at the chose points.... the number of channels.

You adjust the two channels with treble and base... and with hearing aids you can have in the high end ones 16 channels. Your audiologist has access to the volume or amplitude potentiometer in the hearing aid... like the treble base and volume knobs on the stereo. They do it with a mouse to change the shape of the response curve. They are presumably adjusting the pots to compensate for your hearing curve.

But YOU could do this perfectly well... just as you do with the volume and treble and bass control. Then they ask you.... how does this sound? Better?

Can you turn up the pots too high? No... software would not permit that.

+++

So what is the issue here????

Hearing is about distinguishing content... turning sound into meaning... music, speech and so on.

Human speech is in a very limited section of the audio spectrum. There is no deep bass or very high notes for example. We know that some singers have wider range than others... some are bass, others sopranos and so on when they sing. Females typically have speech in a higher ranger than males for example. MOST hearing aids deal with the amplifying signal in the speech range of the heating spectrum. A person with hearing loss may not be able to hear a piccolo, for example of the very high notes of a violin... but human speech doesn't go to that range and so no point in working/amplifyng in that range.

What hearing aids fail miserably at dealing with "distortion":

amplitude distortion
harmonic distortion
frequency response distortion
phase distortion
group delay distortion

These distortions are artifacts of both the algorithms and the components specs. All these little amplifiers are on tiny microprocessors made by robots... just like those memory chips in computers. Once engineered... it's all automated/robotic manufacture. The the small components are assembled... and you have you miniature amplifier PA system for each ear supposedly matched to your hearing loss profile - audiogram.

This is not a comouter program to match / correct the amplification of each channel with your audiogram and an idealized one. It's done with a mouse by clicking on and dragging the onscreen audiogram usually UP... at the various channels... filling in the valleys!

Designing the amplifiers is rocket science... as is manufacturing them. Adjusting them is not... it's trivial... trivial as turning the volume or base and treble controls to make the sound come from the speakers as you like it.

The little speakers also have performance specs... they should have a flat response on no distortion. But this is clearly not the case because different audio speakers and mics have different specs, frequency response and distortion values. So you have the specs of the mechanical devices of the hearing aids.... the mics and speakers... and then the specs for the amplifiers.

Now see if you can get these manufactures to provide the specs. here is the explanation for Microphone specs.

https://www.invensense.com/wp-conten...-1112-v1.1.pdf

None of the companies reveal this... therefore the consumer is completely in the dark. Why don't they reveal it? Maybe because an informed consumer would buy their BS... and over pay for what they peddle.

Why don't they allow users to program their own devices? Because these companies and audiologists lose a revenue stream... Consumers are forced to be tied to the provider or these instruments for EVERYTHING... including the rip off prices for replaceable parts like ear bud domes, and so on.

My conclusion after doing research....

These devices DO amplify sound. The amplifiers are different... quality wise... but who can tell and how do you tell and know?

The industry is a scam with way over priced products... even the Audicus. Places like Costco simply have a lower profit margin and higher sales volume.

The marketing practices are cynical and predatory. Virtually all people will experience hearing loss as they age... some damage their ears when they are young. Captive market with no choices... one rip off copy cat company or the other... Siemens, Phonak, Oticon, Resound and so on... all hawking the same over priced stuff... minor variations of window dressing and number of channels.

Just look at their marketing... all lifestyle rubbish... every single one of them including companies like Audicus which claim to be different. The only difference is they don't have bricks and mortars interfaces and all the costs associated with that. It's nothing but a help desk operation with some techie programming the devices to the audiograms they receive.

ENT is a way more complex profession and DOES involve medical knowledge and they do treat hearing loss conditions. Hearing aid audiologists such as Audicus claim to have is pure marketing hype.

"In the United States, audiologists are regulated by state licensure or registration in all 50 states and the District of Columbia. Starting in 2007, the Doctor of Audiology (Au.D.) became the entry-level degree for clinical practice for some states, with most states expected to follow this requirement very soon, as there are no longer any professional programs in audiology which offer the master's degree. Minimum requirements for the Au.D. degree include a minimum of 75 semester hours of post-baccalaureate study, meeting prescribed competencies, passing a national exam offered by Praxis Series of the Educational Testing Service, and practicum experience that is equivalent to a minimum of 12 months of full-time, supervised experience. Most states have continuing education renewal requirements that must be met to stay licensed. Audiologists can also earn a certificate from the American Speech-Language-Hearing Association or seek board certification through the American Board of Audiology (ABA). Currently there are over 70 Au.D. programs in the United States:"

You decide. But the choices are a joke.

dbaublis · 09-03-2017, 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandero

This is one of my main beefs with this industry and the audiologists who "program" these devices.

This is very basic stuff that an intelligent person could do because it really very simple. The audiologist scans the patient's (customer's) audiogram into a computer which can bring it up on a screen and appears like a graph with the low frequency on the left ranging to the high on the right. The audio gram is the frequence "response" for each ear. Let's say you simply for whatever reason could not hear 440cps... the audiogram would show 0 amplitude response at 440 and so on. The audio gram looks like the profiile of a mountain range with peaks and valleys representing your ear's frequency response.

What the audiologist does... is he can COMPARE your ear's response to a "flat" or balanced or whatever term you want to use... response curve.

Think of a audio amplifier. You want it to amplify EACH frequency the same amount or in way that the human ear can process the signal. Audio equipment... mics and speakers and ampliers are meant to have a flat response at all frequencies. If they are modulating the amplitude of the higher frequencies... the sound will have a "tinny" quality... or the bass... a booomy quality.

We all are familiar with adjusting the treble and the base on a stereo set or entertainment system. treble and base divide the audio spectrum into 2 channels. Think of a rubber band stretched between two points one being the low frequency and and the other being the high frequency end. To change the response push the rubber band up or pull it down at two, 3. 4 or even 16 places. Flat level flat rubber band is a flat frequency response... peaks and valleys are attenuating or damping the response at the chose points.... the number of channels.

You adjust the two channels with treble and base... and with hearing aids you can have in the high end ones 16 channels. Your audiologist has access to the volume or amplitude potentiometer in the hearing aid... like the treble base and volume knobs on the stereo. They do it with a mouse to change the shape of the response curve. They are presumably adjusting the pots to compensate for your hearing curve.

But YOU could do this perfectly well... just as you do with the volume and treble and bass control. Then they ask you.... how does this sound? Better?

Can you turn up the pots too high? No... software would not permit that.

+++

So what is the issue here????

Hearing is about distinguishing content... turning sound into meaning... music, speech and so on.

Human speech is in a very limited section of the audio spectrum. There is no deep bass or very high notes for example. We know that some singers have wider range than others... some are bass, others sopranos and so on when they sing. Females typically have speech in a higher ranger than males for example. MOST hearing aids deal with the amplifying signal in the speech range of the heating spectrum. A person with hearing loss may not be able to hear a piccolo, for example of the very high notes of a violin... but human speech doesn't go to that range and so no point in working/amplifyng in that range.

What hearing aids fail miserably at dealing with "distortion":

amplitude distortion

harmonic distortion

frequency response distortion

phase distortion

group delay distortion

These distortions are artifacts of both the algorithms and the components specs. All these little amplifiers are on tiny microprocessors made by robots... just like those memory chips in computers. Once engineered... it's all automated/robotic manufacture. The the small components are assembled... and you have you miniature amplifier PA system for each ear supposedly matched to your hearing loss profile - audiogram.

This is not a comouter program to match / correct the amplification of each channel with your audiogram and an idealized one. It's done with a mouse by clicking on and dragging the onscreen audiogram usually UP... at the various channels... filling in the valleys!

Designing the amplifiers is rocket science... as is manufacturing them. Adjusting them is not... it's trivial... trivial as turning the volume or base and treble controls to make the sound come from the speakers as you like it.

The little speakers also have performance specs... they should have a flat response on no distortion. But this is clearly not the case because different audio speakers and mics have different specs, frequency response and distortion values. So you have the specs of the mechanical devices of the hearing aids.... the mics and speakers... and then the specs for the amplifiers.

Now see if you can get these manufactures to provide the specs. here is the explanation for Microphone specs.

https://www.invensense.com/wp-conten...-1112-v1.1.pdf

None of the companies reveal this... therefore the consumer is completely in the dark. Why don't they reveal it? Maybe because an informed consumer would buy their BS... and over pay for what they peddle.

Why don't they allow users to program their own devices? Because these companies and audiologists lose a revenue stream... Consumers are forced to be tied to the provider or these instruments for EVERYTHING... including the rip off prices for replaceable parts like ear bud domes, and so on.

My conclusion after doing research....

These devices DO amplify sound. The amplifiers are different... quality wise... but who can tell and how do you tell and know?

The industry is a scam with way over priced products... even the Audicus. Places like Costco simply have a lower profit margin and higher sales volume.

The marketing practices are cynical and predatory. Virtually all people will experience hearing loss as they age... some damage their ears when they are young. Captive market with no choices... one rip off copy cat company or the other... Siemens, Phonak, Oticon, Resound and so on... all hawking the same over priced stuff... minor variations of window dressing and number of channels.

Just look at their marketing... all lifestyle rubbish... every single one of them including companies like Audicus which claim to be different. The only difference is they don't have bricks and mortars interfaces and all the costs associated with that. It's nothing but a help desk operation with some techie programming the devices to the audiograms they receive.

ENT is a way more complex profession and DOES involve medical knowledge and they do treat hearing loss conditions. Hearing aid audiologists such as Audicus claim to have is pure marketing hype.

"In the United States, audiologists are regulated by state licensure or registration in all 50 states and the District of Columbia. Starting in 2007, the Doctor of Audiology (Au.D.) became the entry-level degree for clinical practice for some states, with most states expected to follow this requirement very soon, as there are no longer any professional programs in audiology which offer the master's degree. Minimum requirements for the Au.D. degree include a minimum of 75 semester hours of post-baccalaureate study, meeting prescribed competencies, passing a national exam offered by Praxis Series of the Educational Testing Service, and practicum experience that is equivalent to a minimum of 12 months of full-time, supervised experience. Most states have continuing education renewal requirements that must be met to stay licensed. Audiologists can also earn a certificate from the American Speech-Language-Hearing Association or seek board certification through the American Board of Audiology (ABA). Currently there are over 70 Au.D. programs in the United States:"

You decide. But the choices are a joke.

Sandero, i am guessing you do not wear hearing aids based on this diatribe. Maybe after 10+ years of wearing a hearing aid, which so beneficially changed my life, i might be able to tune a hearing aid for myself, but that is unlikely and truly, not worth it. Unlikely as the new hearing aid technology is more than six years newer than the last one i bought. Features of the higher end units amazing and the lower cost units continually closer to the high end stuff.

My audiologist knows me, where i wear it, what i need, and how these units respond. For me, metallic and machinery sound cut through all sounds. Do i know how to tune out those frequencies while still maintaining differentiation between zh and th in the human voice spectrum with wind background noise masking voices especially? Did you know such a problem existed? My audiologist does and has programed my device to compensate. This is just one example of the tuning that takes place. That will never come from a mail order hearing aid or a big box store. I pay real money for my aid and it comes with lifetime tuneups. The first hearing aid i wore took over six months to fine tune as i needed to learn what was doable and what to expect in differing situations, maybe longer. Three or more programs let me go from a quiet meeting room to a noisy restaurant to a windy sailboat with good hearing in each. Like glasses, they are not always perfect.

With a cost of 3 large and up for a reasonable hearing aid, more like 4-5 with the extras one might need, these are significant investments. More difficult to tune than eyeglasses because of the variety of sound situations and unseen aspect of sound. They are not waterproof and people learn quickly how important these devices are. I agree there are many shady operations in the hearing aid business and insurance does not generally cover them, which is unconscionable. Stick to a name manufacturer and go through a real doctor's office especially for your first set. Later maybe you can save with Costco but you need to manage their audiologist as well.

I had my first ear operation more than 30 years ago and the prosthetic stapes bone is still working. But adding a hearing aid to my repertoire made a world of difference to me and to those around me. These devices improve the quality of life for many people who don't even realize what they are missing until they try it. Today's devices are as sophisticated as any high tech device yet as personal and enabling that most people never experience. When you need one, i hope your audiologist doesn't share your attitude or you will get neither the technology fitted properly nor the quality of life improvement that is available from these highly-complex, amazingly-miniaturized, computer-driven speakers and microphones called hearing aids. They are much more than their name implies.

Dan

Sandero · 10-03-2017, 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbaublis

Sandero, i am guessing you do not wear hearing aids based on this diatribe. Maybe after 10+ years of wearing a hearing aid, which so beneficially changed my life, i might be able to tune a hearing aid for myself, but that is unlikely and truly, not worth it. Unlikely as the new hearing aid technology is more than six years newer than the last one i bought. Features of the higher end units amazing and the lower cost units continually closer to the high end stuff.

My audiologist knows me, where i wear it, what i need, and how these units respond. For me, metallic and machinery sound cut through all sounds. Do i know how to tune out those frequencies while still maintaining differentiation between zh and th in the human voice spectrum with wind background noise masking voices especially? Did you know such a problem existed? My audiologist does and has programed my device to compensate. This is just one example of the tuning that takes place. That will never come from a mail order hearing aid or a big box store. I pay real money for my aid and it comes with lifetime tuneups. The first hearing aid i wore took over six months to fine tune as i needed to learn what was doable and what to expect in differing situations, maybe longer. Three or more programs let me go from a quiet meeting room to a noisy restaurant to a windy sailboat with good hearing in each. Like glasses, they are not always perfect.

With a cost of 3 large and up for a reasonable hearing aid, more like 4-5 with the extras one might need, these are significant investments. More difficult to tune than eyeglasses because of the variety of sound situations and unseen aspect of sound. They are not waterproof and people learn quickly how important these devices are. I agree there are many shady operations in the hearing aid business and insurance does not generally cover them, which is unconscionable. Stick to a name manufacturer and go through a real doctor's office especially for your first set. Later maybe you can save with Costco but you need to manage their audiologist as well.

I had my first ear operation more than 30 years ago and the prosthetic stapes bone is still working. But adding a hearing aid to my repertoire made a world of difference to me and to those around me. These devices improve the quality of life for many people who don't even realize what they are missing until they try it. Today's devices are as sophisticated as any high tech device yet as personal and enabling that most people never experience. When you need one, i hope your audiologist doesn't share your attitude or you will get neither the technology fitted properly nor the quality of life improvement that is available from these highly-complex, amazingly-miniaturized, computer-driven speakers and microphones called hearing aids. They are much more than their name implies.

Dan

I have used hearing aids for more than 10 years... and have had devices from 3 different manufacturers and 2 audiologists. I like the audiologist I currently see. The fault is more in the business model and unrealistic expectations.

They absolutely assist in my hearing. They are seriously flawed in what they do and terribly over priced... despite the remarkable miniaturized technology.

derfy · 10-03-2017, 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandero

I have used hearing aids for more than 10 years... and have had devices from 3 different manufacturers and 2 audiologists. I like the audiologist I currently see. The fault is more in the business model and unrealistic expectations.

They absolutely assist in my hearing. They are seriously flawed in what they do and terribly over priced... despite the remarkable miniaturized technology.

For what it's worth ... I am new to this. I hated the idea of having to wear them. Just got this device, 40 days into my 45 day trial. I really really like them, though. It really makes a difference is what I can hear. It's huge.

nirish · 21-06-2017, 17:40

As a practical tip, do any of you wear just one while underway to minimize the risk of both getting flooded? And/or store in a waterproof case while taking dinghy trips?