Successor to ActiveCaptain?

[Jeff Foulk]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

I also did a very quick review, and at the time CF didn't allow me to send it to you, but here's what I wrote:

First, I don't see a way to use this off line.

Second, your list of locations does not include anchorages or mooring fields. It's interesting that bars are included, but not grocery stores, WalMarts or dinghy docks, which are all at least as important to cruisers. [I'll look again, now that you've said they are in fact available.]

[I also agree that a "normal" web site for use on a laptop is almost a requirement to me.]

Thanks for the feedback. We are working on “offline” capability as I realize cellular coverage can be iffy. One of my biggest worries. And I agree a web version is a good idea, we will add that to our plans.

Anchorages, bridges, inlets, etc can be found via keyword search. They are not currently listed as one of the search categories but we can add. I was planning to add grocery stores, supply stores and such. We have a list of things we plan to add. But this helps us prioritize.

[Jeff Foulk]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Remember that many of us plan ahead. Sitting in Havre de Grace how long and how many clicks to find marinas in Bradenton FL? Same for Little Creek VA. What is the bridge clearance inside Rudee Inlet?

Follow on question is what is your vision for Argo? Are you a mapping and navigation utility that includes reviews? A review compilation that uses maps as a convenient interface? Social media?

Good question. It took me 4 clicks to pull up marinas in Bradenton, FL. Tap Search, tap Marina category, tap Done or Map icon, then pan to Florida and tap Search this Area. See attached image.

Connecting boaters and offering local knowledge was my main objective but I also felt we needed to have some capability to plan and navigate the waters. Trying to do too much is a chance we are taking but this is by no means a finished product.

[hpeer]

If you start a new thread with that app name in the title it will be easier for folks to find it and contribute.

[Jeff Foulk]

Thanks. Good idea. I will give that a try.

[SuW]

Originally Posted by Jeff Foulk

Thanks. Good idea. I will give that a try.

And post a link here to that thread. Thanks.

[svfinlandia]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

But I don't think you can add them via AquaMap anymore. You have to go online to the AC/Garmin site and do it. When was last time you updated your AquaMap.

Sailorboy
Just to see if I could, I opened AquaMap on my on my iPad and posted a review for Wayfarers cove marina off the Neuse River in North Carolina. It worked fine.

Al, S/V Finlandia

[MVNightWatch]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

There's this one:

https://www.waterwayguide.com/


It's a hybrid between crowd source and professional source. Doesn't have as much data as the old AC, but what's there has been verified (on some level) by actual cruising editors.


Disclosure: I am (or was) one of these Cruising Editors.

Hey, Mike! I am (or was) one of those cruising contributors, and remember sending you stuff for public posting.I am an old crank in at least one way: I prefer curated and verified information to crowdsource noise. Worked in the tv news biz for 30 years, so like things a bit more organized and trustworthy. Thanks for your work to keep us all informed! Best.
CapnRon
NightWatch (2014 cruiser/contributor)

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by MVNightWatch

Hey, Mike! I am (or was) one of those cruising contributors, and remember sending you stuff for public posting.I am an old crank in at least one way: I prefer curated and verified information to crowdsource noise. Worked in the tv news biz for 30 years, so like things a bit more organized and trustworthy. Thanks for your work to keep us all informed! Best.
CapnRon
NightWatch (2014 cruiser/contributor)

Thanks Ron. All the Cruising Editors do their best to ensure what shows on WWG is accurate.

I too prefer curated information from a trusted source. But there is great power in crowd sourced info as well. Experts can't be everywhere, and things do change fast sometimes. This is why I like WWG's amalgam approach. It uses both forms of data.


BTW, someone mentioned a while back that it is difficult to submit new anchorage info to WWG. There is a "Submit Nav Alert" button on the bottom left of the web interface. Just click on it, then stick it where you want it to be, and then fill in the info box that pops up.

Nothing will appear automatically on the map though. The info is sent to WWG editors who will attempt to verify things before placing it on the map. It's a small staff, and in these days of Covid-19 restrictions, things have got even harder for this small American company. But rest assure the info will be examined and posted if it can be verified.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I too prefer curated information from a trusted source. But there is great power in crowd sourced info as well. Experts can't be everywhere, and things do change fast sometimes. This is why I like WWG's amalgam approach. It uses both forms of data.

The challenge with curation is that experts don't always agree. So when Bob Sherer and Tom Hale disagree what is Ted Stehle to do? He can't go everywhere and frankly (no offense to Ted) doesn't have the expertise of either Bob or Tom.

This is, I believe, where fora like CF excel. The discussion between experts on areas of disagreement is good for everyone. This is fundamentally the same as peer reviewed journals in academia. Frankly the questions and challenges from the peanut gallery are like questions at the presentation of a paper at a conference. If you can't answer a question from the audience you probably don't understand things as well as you think you do.

In my opinion the balance at least along the US East Coast and probably the entire Great Loop between AC and WWG is not a matter of predominately crowd-sourced v. curated. It's being current. AC lost because some people just don't like Garmin, because GDPR requirements took a long time to be accommodated, because the Flash to HTML5 transition was bungled, and because Garmin appears to have back-burnered AC. WWG is filling the gap on the US East Coast.

I can only speak for myself. Outside WWG regions, AC is a distant second behind Google. Five years ago I would not have even considered dumping AC for more movies on my iPhone.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

The challenge with curation is that experts don't always agree. So when Bob Sherer and Tom Hale disagree what is Ted Stehle to do? He can't go everywhere and frankly (no offense to Ted) doesn't have the expertise of either Bob or Tom.

This is, I believe, where fora like CF excel. The discussion between experts on areas of disagreement is good for everyone. This is fundamentally the same as peer reviewed journals in academia. Frankly the questions and challenges from the peanut gallery are like questions at the presentation of a paper at a conference. If you can't answer a question from the audience you probably don't understand things as well as you think you do.

In my opinion the balance at least along the US East Coast and probably the entire Great Loop between AC and WWG is not a matter of predominately crowd-sourced v. curated. It's being current. AC lost because some people just don't like Garmin, because GDPR requirements took a long time to be accommodated, because the Flash to HTML5 transition was bungled, and because Garmin appears to have back-burnered AC. WWG is filling the gap on the US East Coast.

I can only speak for myself. Outside WWG regions, AC is a distant second behind Google. Five years ago I would not have even considered dumping AC for more movies on my iPhone.

Yup. I'm sure it's a constant challenge for Ted and the gang. But one of the strengths of WWG is that all the nav data is reviewed at least annually, by active cruisers (the Cruising Editors). These folks, of which I am one (or was before the whole Covid Collapse), review all the key data points in their areas.

Ted and the CEs certainly can't be on top of everything, which is where the crowd sourcing comes in handy, but at least someone is at least attempting to keep the key info current and relevant.

BTW, I'm in no way dissing AC or the other crowd source tools. I still use AC on occasion, although it is not particularly useful in areas that are lightly traveled such as Newfoundland. But it's still a useful tool. I use it, along with pretty much any other source I can get my hands on: guides, government pubs, and of course (and mainly) charts. I've not got into using Google maps and satellite images. Mainly because mostly I'm outside of Internet access where I cruise.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

BTW, I'm in no way dissing AC or the other crowd source tools. I still use AC on occasion, although it is not particularly useful in areas that are lightly traveled such as Newfoundland. But it's still a useful tool. I use it, along with pretty much any other source I can get my hands on: guides, government pubs, and of course (and mainly) charts. I've not got into using Google maps and satellite images. Mainly because mostly I'm outside of Internet access where I cruise.

Agreed.

I've called TowboatUS or SeaTow for advice more than once. During prep for a trip I'll spend time with Google Maps and Google Earth for marina layouts. I really wish more marinas did a good job of posting layouts on their websites. "Yes, yes, that's dock D, but where is slip 49?" Of course I'd also like the person who answers the phone to know what the marina looks like from the water, for someone to answer the VHF, for dockhands that were not a hazard, and for a unicorn to be available to ride to town for groceries.

Interestingly I find the USCG stations to be a poor source of local information. They know where their small boats (shallow draft) can go, but not how deep the water is. RNLI does a much better job in their stomping grounds. I don't have enough data to have an opinion about CCG. BASRA and RBDF are good. Radio Bermuda is outstanding - they sit up there at the top of the hill, know all, see all, tell all.

[hpeer]

Mike,

Now that I’ve updated my AC on AquaMap I looked at Newfoundland and note that MOST of the previous locations and comments, including mine, have disappeared.

Unless I’ve done something stupid, yet again. Sigh!

And I saw none for WWG.

[hpeer]

Been a long, long time since I was in the USCG but the difference might be that the USCG is a military organization with a lot of 4 year recruits, in and out of the service. That’s the way it was in the 70’s anyhow.

They don’t really get the time to have the experience. Now if you get a lifer with 10 of 15 years, he may have recently transitioned in from a distant station and not yet be familiar with the local waters.

Would be useful to hear from guys with more recent experience, like this century. (ouch)

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Been a long, long time since I was in the USCG but the difference might be that the USCG is a military organization with a lot of 4 year recruits, in and out of the service. That’s the way it was in the 70’s anyhow.

They don’t really get the time to have the experience. Now if you get a lifer with 10 of 15 years, he may have recently transitioned in from a distant station and not yet be familiar with the local waters.

Would be useful to hear from guys with more recent experience, like this century. (ouch)

I'm not making aspersions. I'm reporting reality, at least my experience.

When kids come out of Cape May as non-rates most of them seem to end up in a Sector radio room. Training and supervision doesn't seem to emphasize things like LET GO OF THE MIC BUTTON WHEN YOU SAY "BREAK." *sigh*

I have lots of great stories of fantastic support from USCG. The kids are just muscle. The senior enlisted and some (not all) of the officers are truly outstanding. USCG has the same problem as the USN of needing to go through two or three steps in the chain of command to reach adult supervision.

USCG stations are simply not helpful for local information.

Just to balance things out, I'll tell one of my other USCG stories.

I was on delivery from St Thomas USVI to Annapolis MD. The boat looked okay, just a little rough. Lagoon 38. Somewhere off Cape Lookout the watch woke me up. "Dave, the main fell down." *sigh* "I'm coming." The d@m^ boat has a hardtop with no handholds on it, it's 3a, it's raining, and I'm in my underwear. It took the better part of an hour to get the main under control and tied to the boom. Engines on (tiny little saildrives grossly underpowered) and kept going. Should I have turned back to Beaufort Inlet? Maybe. Time to Little Creek was only about twelve hours longer than going back. Sometime after the sun comes up the watch (different person) woke me and said "Bob says there is an engine problem. He's getting up." Well, Bob is sleeping on top of the port engine. Bob is a mechanical engineer, BS, MS, lots of experience. When Bob says "the engine made some bad noises and then got very quiet" I take that seriously. As near as I can tell the engine or leg has seized. We later learned these little engines have a 100 hour service interval on the leg seal. Not a good choice for a cruising boat. We didn't know that at the time. So know we're making way on jib (main-driven boat) and one engine.

I'm a cautious guy, so we eased to the West and I called the Coast Guard. Sector North Carolina, after we suggested that towing us across the four foot bar at Oregon Inlet in three foot seas was probably not a good idea, set us up on a four hour radio watch. This worked great - they knew who we were, where we were, and what the situation was. Sector NC handed us off to Sector Hampton Roads.

About the time we got to 1CB the wind shifted just as we tried to turn to go through the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel. For the life of us I could not get progress (remember one engine, tiny jib). We're making big circles slowly drifting toward Bermuda. So I called TowboatUS (I had commercial towing from them before they cancelled the program). Dispatch transferred me to the local tower in Lynnhaven (the TowboatUS app is the bomb by the way) who asked about the conditions. "25 gusting over 30, seas 6 to 8 ft." The tower said he needed to do some checking. That checking included calling Virginia Pilots who have a control tower at Cape Henry. Virginia Pilots called the Coast Guard who told them about us. So Virginia Pilots called us to ask us what the conditions were. "25 gusting over 30, seas 6 to 8 ft." Minutes later TowboatUS calls back and says "Conditions are reported to be 25 gusting over 30, seas 6 to 8 ft." Yeah, we know. TowboatUS did the finest thing they could do for us. The tower said it was too rough for them. That freed the USCG to come get us. So instead of one guy in a 24' red boat we got five guys in a 40' boat. USCG called when they passed the inlet and told us what to expect (no surprises) and we had a crew meeting for a plan. When we could see the USCG boat we called and told them the plan on our end. We got lined up (remember, we're dynamic as heading in a straight line at this point is not happening) and they fired the messenger line. Bob grabbed that and hauled handed off one side of the bridle to Beth to drop over the port cleat and the other to Shay to drop over the starboard cleat. Everyone crawled back to the cockpit. We lined up behind the tensioned tow and locked the helm. Did I mention it was February and about 19F outside? Time from line in the air to under tow was right around a minute. I was proud of my crew.

Long tow in through the pilot area and the Thimble Shoal Channel entrance and into Little Creek. Shay decided to bake. By this time she had a grip on what we had in stores. She made cookies, brownies, and some kind of bar thingy. The salon actually got above freezing. Lots of time to organize on the phone. Owners updated. Cobbs Marina shuffled boats around for an easy landing. USCG coordinated with the USN Amphibious Base to tow us in there and pick us up on the hip in their basin. Station Lynnhaven Roads sent two guys over in a pickup truck with fenders in case we needed extras.

We're all tied up. We've got five Coasties from the boat, two from the station, four staff from Cobb's, and me and crew. This actually started to warm up the salon a bit. Everyone is eating baked goods and the CG coxswain sat down with me to go over the inspection sheet - this is policy for USCG tows. He didn't look at anything, just asked me questions. "Head discharge?" "Closed at 12 miles, we haven't wired them yet." "OK." When we were done he gave me one of the two nicest compliments I've received: "when did you retire from Coast Guard?"

I wrote thank you notes to Sector NC, Sector Hampton Roads, and Station Lynnhaven Roads. I got a great note back from Sector Hampton Roads that thanked me for professionalism and importantly for providing what turned out to be a training opportunity. Training evolutions always leak out and aren't the surprise they are supposed to be. We were the real deal that was frankly pretty low risk.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

When kids come out of Cape May as non-rates most of them seem to end up in a Sector radio room. Training and supervision doesn't seem to emphasize things like LET GO OF THE MIC BUTTON WHEN YOU SAY "BREAK." *sigh*

Our local sector is bad about that one. I regularly find myself thinking "what's the point of saying break when you're going to pause for maybe a second and not bother to un-key the mic?"

That said, every time I've seen or heard them dealing with an actual issue, they appear to do a great job with it.