Yep - we dragged!

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by SVRocinante

Funny you should mention that Paul L.; wife and I spent the morning discussing a Bahamian moor!

They are effective but a hassle to setup and tear down. If you expect the change in wind or current then they maybe worth it, especially if you are using a Danforth style anchor. With your Spade I don't think it is worth it for any normal anchoring.
Here's a thread on the Bahamian moor
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ead-99212.html

[SV Sailfish]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Sounds like a close call.. well done in staying safe..
Now I've never been sure of the much quoted 'scope' principle..
I work to an older more basic measurement.. 3.5 x boat length plus depth at high water if I am anchoring somewhere for a while.. obviously if just for a few hours food and drink then go, I'm more relaxed and let out just sufficient for the prevailing weather conditions at the time.
Now I cop for a lot of grief on here because of this long stay mantra of mine but.. I just looked up a few sites and found this on Sailboatcruising.com...

The Anchor Chain Length for Ultimate Security...
Here's what I recommend:
Lay out the 4:1 scope plus twice the boat length - providing of course there's room to do so, and you've got enough chain in your anchor locker.
Now you can rest easy in your bunk or make a trip ashore, confident in the knowledge that you've done the best you can for the security of your anchored boat.
For a boat 12m long overall with bow height of 1m above the waterline, the recommended anchor chain length to be deployed is...
Water Depth Effective Depth 4:1(minimum) Plus LOA x 2 Chain(ideal)
...... 3m..................... 4m..................16m..............24m.......... .. 40m......

So.. up your nose all the righteous ranter's here who say I lay out to much.. obviously most of them are day trippers who rarely spend very long on the hook and run to the marina once it exceeds 10kts..
Funny how the above seems to match my 3.5 + depth nearly exactly..
I also am ready to lay out more chain should the wind increases enough to start me surging/jerking..

All chain!

[SVRocinante]

Originally Posted by EllesBelles

We are circumnavigating, have been sailing for 4 years, 40,000+ miles, and I’ll repeat the sailors adage - if you haven’t dragged, you haven’t sailed for long, so don’t feel bad. You’re now an official SAILOR.
You mentioned a snubber so I’ll share One good piece of advice we got from a sailor who literally wrote one of the well known books on sailing - and follow - don’t attach anything to your anchor line. We do use a bridle (we’re on a cat) but that’s it. Anything that keeps you from getting your anchor up as fast as possible in an emergency is a hazard.
The other thing I recommend is an anchor alarm. We use several (there are many apps you can download on your phone/tablet). They allow you to sleep peacefully knowing the anchor alarm will go off if you move outside the zone you preset. A few offer remote connections to a cell phone, and this can be a great service if you are on shore where you can’t watch your boat.
Lastly, anchor dragging is often not the fault of the anchor but rather how much chain/rode you let out, or the fact that the anchor didn’t get properly set. We always back down on our anchor fiercely using our motors and zoom way in on our furuno display to see that the boat direction is going sideways not backward to help verify that our anchor is steadfast. We usually dive the anchor after that to get a visual fix on it if conditions and depth permits.

Thank you EllesBelles

One of my challanges as it pertains to the snubber, is that I have not found a good place to lock off the chain in order to release the load on the windlass. That said, the snubbing line is attached to the chain with a rolling hitch. I havn’t had to remove it in “an emergency”, but it does come undone quickly even after weeks of being “loaded”.

Thanks again for all the great thoughts!

[SVRocinante]

Originally Posted by CBound

Good job staying off the shore in a difficult situation! One option I have successfully used in the past when expecting a blow is to reset the anchor prior to the storm in the direction that will afford you the best holding opportunity for the worst winds expected at the height of the storm. In the end, as you did, there is no substitute for remaining at the ready to help your anchor do it’s job.

Thank you CBound

Yep, thought of that after the fact!

[hamburking]

I recall being at my favourite anchorage in the 1000 islands, in the admiralty group. Plenty of space, good holding, protected (mostly). I was using my big bruce anchor that had held me in that anchorage through many storms, never dragging, not even a little. Well, this one day, the wind picks up to 25 and I start to drag. Shocked, I bring up the anchor only to find that it had fouled on what I would describe as a large branch or a small tree. The branch stopped the anchor from working as it should, and instead it all just skimmed along the bottom.

My point is, sometimes you can do everything right, and stuff still happens.

No, I didn't dive on the anchor, tons of weeds and muck...would not have been able to see it anyway.

[SVRocinante]

Originally Posted by GregW1309

I read you got the 40-60 knot gust at the same time as a 180 degree wind shift. I think ithe anchor would have to be bury'ed really, really deep to keep the set. Maybe yours was still sitting near the bottom surface, since it had been light winds ? Could you have backed down harder when you set it? Perhaps setting a second anchor 180 degrees from the first would have taken up the load when the first pulled out with the direction change. But who is going to do that in the light conditions you started out with? I think your monitoring the drift and starting the motor was the proper thing!

Thank you GregW

Yep, since it came on us so quickly, I’m starting to believe the only thing I didn’t do that I should have was immediately let out much more scope... who knows, at this point, just happy to be discussing it with everyone here and coming up with ideas for next time.

[LooseGoose]

Glad you pulled out of the situation OK.

Many anchors set and hold well on initial deployment, but have trouble re-setting after a tide reversal for instance.

Check out this video for excellent view of what happens under water during a rapid reversal ....

https://youtu.be/l59f-OjWoq0

Search YouTube for the SV Panope series of anchoring videos.....highly instructive, and will no doubt help inform your decisions.

[Suijin]

I honestly think it was just an area of poor holding given your anchor, scope, etc.

As an example, I used to have a slip on Back Creek in Annapolis, even more sheltered than where you were. Directly out from my boat was *terrible* holding, universally accepted by everyone around. If you went 200' farther up or down the creek, the holding was excellent.

If you anchored in that spot you literally had a 1 in 3 chance of dragging, and it was stressful during the boat show because cruisers would come in, drop their anchor, and take off in their dinghy. More than a few times I came on deck to find the stern of a boat 30' from mine.

Just down the creek you can anchor for months and sleep well at night. And many do.

[SVRocinante]

Originally Posted by LooseGoose

Glad you pulled out of the situation OK.

Many anchors set and hold well on initial deployment, but have trouble re-setting after a tide reversal for instance.

Check out this video for excellent view of what happens under water during a rapid reversal ....

https://youtu.be/l59f-OjWoq0

Search YouTube for the SV Panope series of anchoring videos.....highly instructive, and will no doubt help inform your decisions.

Thank you LooseGoose
I’ve actually watched a bunch of those and yes, found them to be very informative!

[SVRocinante]

Originally Posted by Suijin

I honestly think it was just an area of poor holding given your anchor, scope, etc.

As an example, I used to have a slip on Back Creek in Annapolis, even more sheltered than where you were. Directly out from my boat was *terrible* holding, universally accepted by everyone around. If you went 200' farther up or down the creek, the holding was excellent.

If you anchored in that spot you literally had a 1 in 3 chance of dragging, and it was stressful during the boat show because cruisers would come in, drop their anchor, and take off in their dinghy. More than a few times I came on deck to find the stern of a boat 30' from mine.

Just down the creek you can anchor for months and sleep well at night. And many do.

Thanks Suijin

[kas_1611]

Can't comment on the bottom conditions or the location as I don't know it but we dragged in 40kts squalls with our original 16kg (35lb) Delta and after that I was never really happy with it. We have a Bavaria Cruiser 40 (12m).

I took the plunge and upgraded to a massive 33kg Vulcan along with 60m of 8mm G70 chain spliced to a further 45m of 16mm Octoplait. My thinking is go big or go home. I don't want to be f'in about in ***** conditions trying to lay a secondary anchor or even buggering about with a V set up.

Certain conditions will always test any anchor set up. Geologically conditions can vary metre to metre on the seabed. Even a fractional change in the gloop at the bottom can make a massive difference to the overall shear strength of the medium. Silt is actually one of the best bottom materials as it has the ease of penetration of sand but the shear strength of some muds/clays.

Personally I don't think you did anything wrong. You had a good anchor out that had been holding well for days, you had plenty of scope out for even the storm conditions. It sounds like one of those events we all dread. I'd pour a stiff drink and contemplate what could have happened and celebrate the fact it didn't.

Keiron

[SVRocinante]

Ok folks

Tide is up, we got Rocinante back into “deep” water - basically kept the chain taught & pulled up slack every 1/2hr until she floated off... woohoo!

We’ve re-anchored, counting on an uneventful evening and then moving on in the morning.

Thanks again for all the great feedback!

[SVRocinante]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

...I'd pour a stiff drink and contemplate what could have happened and celebrate the fact it didn't.

Keiron

Hear, hear Keiron!

[Agarnaut]

Dragging Anchor....The best advise is to upgrade to the heaviest gear you can handle safely. 4 anchors..Working Anchor for the bow,Stern Anchor..BIG STORM ANCHOR..and Sea Anchor.
Chain chain chain...As much as you can let out the better.
Anchor w/ 2 bow anchors port/stb and a stern anchor
A very good GPS/Sonar is a good investment..Forward side scanning.
Hand held GPS dedicated to tracking anchor swing.
A hand held bearing compass to fix on landmarks to track dragging.
UUmmm. Convert to HD Drum Reel if you have the room up forward.

Anchor watch for other boats dragging into you..

When in doubt let more out..

Good luck

[River Cruiser]

I boat on the upper Mississippi, Illinois rivers and have been to the lakes a couple of times. We normally anchor out unless we go to a marina for fuel or for provisions. A couple of years ago after we went to bed we rode out a thunderstorm on the Illinois river with winds out of the north. We were bow to the wind, 3’ rollers were coming down the river, a southbound tow was pushed up to the rdb. He was shining his search light around which got my daughters attention and she woke me up worried about the storm and tow. We have 300’ of 5/16 chain and a fortress fx-37 and never drug a bit with a 5 to 1 scope. I worried more about the 17’ center console I tow, it was bouncing around like a bucking horse. That experience made me a very firm believer in Fortress anchor for a good nights sleep anywhere I’ve been.