How much is too much (anchor and chain)

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by gjordan

Armysailor, for the kind of sailing that you are doing, you really dont need to do much. My OPINION, (and everything on this thread is OPINION), would be to not let other people spend your money for you. Put the Bruce in the bilge or lazzeret and put the shorter piece of chain with the longer nylon onto the plow and be happy. If you want to spend a bit on making things even lighter, then buy a 50 foot hunk of 1/4 high test chain for the plow and life will be easier. You mention Danforths, I think a light Danforth with a small length of chain and 1/2 inch line as a carry out anchor would be a good thing to have available in a reachable spot, but not on the ends of the boat. With a little re-arranging you have more than ample gear. Good Sailing, _____Grant.

There is a lot of validity in this. I made suggestions because you asked. Also because I have a bad back and arthritis, so weight has a double penalty.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

The bottom of the Chesapeake is sand, isn't it?

Actually, rather little is sand. But it ranges from great firm sand to sticky mud, to very soft mud that is barely more than thickened water. There are places (mostly near the cliffs) that are rock and hardpan. There is also weed and shell.


As others have stated, you can go for years without needing to anchor in more than 10 feet.



Seriously, there is a good bit of everything. I've cruised all of it and done a lot of anchor testing.

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by ArmySailor

Good afternoon All,

Looking for recommendations on anchor kit for sailing the Chesapeake...

I have a "new to me" boat (1 year now). Shannon 28 cutter, displaces 9300lbs, keel 3600. She came with a 35lb CQR and 35lb Bruce anchor both nicely fitted on bow rollers.

The CQR has 100ft of chain (3/8ths I think, unknown grade) and 50 feet of rope.

The Bruce has 50ft of chain (3/8ths, ditto) and 100 feet of rope.

BLUF: this is a lot of weight in the bow and she rides heavy into the water. My sailing is daysailing with occasional overnight'ers anchored off shore.

Looking for advice: should i reduce chain? should I store one anchor and chain in storage locker? (which one?) should I move one to the stern for emergency / caught in a massive storm? etc, etc.

Any help would be greatly appreciated! Please take into consideration my cruising grounds - just the Chesapeake bay for next few years.

(Ooops....I guess the first question should be, though, am i mistaken in thinking that a excessively heavy bow is that big of an issue? )

Thanks in advance for sharing your expertise and experience!

-Gene

Read my book...
“Anchoring and Mooring the Cruising Multihull”, (available on Amazon) as it applies quite well here.

You DO nee to keep the bow light, for comfort in a seaway, and a MUCH drier ride.

I would swap out those obsolete anchors for like... a Rocna/Manson and a Delta, use the same length chains, and downsize to 1/4” G4/HT chain (ACCO). You can get them made with an oversized link on each end, so that they will accept a strength compatible HT 3/8” Crosby shackle.

Also... use platt/brait nylon rode on that portion, and a full boat length snubber, when laying to the chain portion of the rode.

Use 7/1 scope ALWAYS, unless there is just not room. Then, use a kellet if needed.

ALWAYS... set the anchor HARD!

I have spent thousands of nights on the hook, from the Chesapeake to Trinidad, (over 45 years) and have only drug once!

Fair winds,
Mark Johnson

[thomm225]

Many times for setting the anchor, I just drop and drift, but I don't usually have to worry about traffic at my anchorages.

I'll watch the boat'ss position for the first hour or two to be sure the anchor is holding, and sometimes I'll give it the pull test also

Two weeks ago my engine failed, so I was sailing in to my anchorages and off of them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBwFOdJemV4

[doug1957]

Originally Posted by Shrew

If it were me, I would do the following:

1) 100ft of 1/4" G40

2) 100 - 150 ft of 1/2" braided anchor line

3) 10KG Rocna or 25LB Manson Supreme.

This is nearly exactly what we had on our Shannon 28, but a bit more rope. Worked fine. The extra chain was nice in tight anchorages. With less chain (25 feet), we swung like crazy.

[Pete7]

Your Shannon 28 is a similar size to us and we also inherited a CQR copy and an unused Bruce from the previous owner. He did candidly admit that the CQR dragged regularly. Both have now gone and replaced with a 10kg Rocna and FX16 Fortress.

The big advantage with the Rocna is that at 10kgs (22lbs) its easily launched with one hand. Indeed we even keep it in the anchor locker out of sight and not pointing out the front like a lance in a jousting competition. You can do this with small boats because the anchors are manageable.

Pete

[Suijin]

Yes there is some sand in the Bay, but it's mostly in high current areas where the mud never settles. 98% of the places you anchor, up in creeks (the gunk holing that the Bay is famous for), are going to be mud.

You don't need a new gen anchor. Go ahead and buy one if it makes you sleep better at night, but I'm sure you have better things to spend money on. Seems like a few people had the same recommendation as I did; use the CQR with the shorter chain, stow the Bruce down low in the center of the boat, and for emergencies keep the extra rope rode but without the long chain.

Anchoring in the Bay is about as unchallenging as it gets. The only caution I would give is to avoid anchoring in "choke points" in creeks where it narrows and then widens out again. Silky pillowy mud can accumulate there and the holding is often poor.

[thomm225]

Back in the day, we used to anchor in about 44' of water fishing on the edge of the deep channel just East of Watts Island.

We'd use just about any old anchor with almost no scope and usually didn't have any trouble.

Our main problem was judging where we were since we didn't have depth finders or even a compass so sometimes we'd be trying to anchor in the center of that 80'-90' channel and most of us didn't have that much rode

We had the island, that channel marker on the other side, and a few other fixes to go by

Chart 12228

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Many times for setting the anchor, I just drop and drift, but I don't usually have to worry about traffic at my anchorages.

I'll watch the boat'ss position for the first hour or two to be sure the anchor is holding, and sometimes I'll give it the pull test also

Two weeks ago my engine failed, so I was sailing in to my anchorages and off of them

I have found the Chesapeake to ne the worst holding that I ever experienced, anywhere! There is usually several feet of silt on top of the mud or sand bottom, and you have to gently wiggle it in, over 10 minutes of gently backing down.

A dragging anchor is #1 on the list, for easiest ways to damage or loose your boat, and the most preventable.


No matter the weather, I anchor for a gale, and back down at full rpm.
If she drags, I move! I have had sudden thunderstorms generate over 60 knots of wind, over 100 times... usually at night!


No matter the risks that YOU are willing to take, we all have a responsability to the other guy...

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Mark Johnson

I have found the Chesapeake to ne the worst holding that I ever experienced, anywhere! There is usually several feet of silt on top of the mud or sand bottom, and you have to gently wiggle it in, over 10 minutes of gently backing down.

A dragging anchor is #1 on the list, for easiest ways to damage or loose your boat, and the most preventable.


No matter the weather, I anchor for a gale, and back down at full rpm.
If she drags, I move! I have had sudden thunderstorms generate over 60 knots of wind, over 100 times... usually at night!


No matter the risks that YOU are willing to take, we all have a responsibility to the other guy...

I rarely take risks at my age and especially not when anchoring. I have yet to back down on an anchor.

(but) then again, I know the areas where I'm anchoring. At Kiptopeke, I have anchored countless times against the lee shore there in big wind and waves to near 3'. I didn't enjoy it but my anchor held each time.

Two weeks ago though I anchored closer to the cement ships, and it worked out much better than bouncing around in the waves just before they broke on Kiptopeke Beach

In my post above concerning fishing near Watts Island, back in the day meant 1971 or 72. If we didn't catch anything there we'd pull the boat and fish seaside and anchor the same way but of course we were in much shallow water over there

The only risk we ever took above the normal risks 16-18 year olds take would have been riding on waves with our boats to get back in off the ocean thru the small inlets on seaside like Metompkin Inlet.

It was kinda like a surfer, you had to chose a good wave to ride the back of and hope your engine didn't quit mid way thru

It's one of those use local knowledge type inlets

[Seafarer24]

I have a Cal 29, which is about 9,000-10,000 lbs. My primary anchor is a 33lb Rocna, which lets me sleep very well at night!

If you don't have a windlass, you can use any size and type of chain that you want. My personal preference would be 50' of 5/16 G4, with 150' of 5/8 nylon rode. I'm currently using 3/8 BBB that I kept from a previous boat.

My secondary anchor is a Danforth 12H which is used in conjunction with the primary, not instead of it. You could go with 25' of chain and 100'-200' of 1/2" nylon on this one. The thinner nylon is important, because you want this rode the stretch a lot! If bad weather is coming, you will set this anchor out in a "Bahamian Mooring" fashion (look it up). You will set it with at least 10:1 scope so there is lots of line to stretch. It's job is to absorb the gusts and keep the bow from sailing side-to-side on the primary rode. Using a Fortress instead would save some weight. Either way, you really want them both on the bow and ready to deploy.

My storm anchor would be a Fortress FX-23 kept disassembled in a bag along with 25' of chain and 200' of 5/8ths nylon. This would be deployed for stuff like Hurricanes, when you can see them coming a long ways off and will need holding in multiple directions due to wind shifts as the storm passes. More of a concern here in FL than for you, I would hope!

[knockabout]

when there is not enough room left in the lazarette to stack beer to counterbalance the chain you have too much chain

[Nani Kai]

Originally Posted by evm1024

Chain has 2 uses 1) chain adds to your holding power, 2) chain does not abrade on coral and other rough bottoms.

Anchoring most common in mud or sand is more or less gentle on the anchor rode. So the durability of chain is of minimal utility (no coral heads).

The rule of thumb I've heard for those cases is to use a length of chain equal to your boat length. 30' is fine.

Regards

Chain is also very important in getting your anchor to set quickly. It gets the anchor to the bottom faster and immediately pulls the anchor shank parallel to the bottom. Then, as the pull of the boat pays out the chain it starts pulling the anchor along the bottom rather than up. Most of the time, setting the anchor is a calm, deliberate action but there are times when weather, equipment failure and/or hazardous surroundings make it imperative to set the anchor NOW! RIGHT NOW! At times like these chain is your very best friend.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Nani Kai

Chain is also very important in getting your anchor to set quickly. It gets the anchor to the bottom faster and immediately pulls the anchor shank parallel to the bottom. Then, as the pull of the boat pays out the chain it starts pulling the anchor along the bottom rather than up. Most of the time, setting the anchor is a calm, deliberate action but there are times when weather, equipment failure and/or hazardous surroundings make it imperative to set the anchor NOW! RIGHT NOW! At times like these chain is your very best friend.

Lets break this down. It all sounds logical, but not if you look at the parts.



"It gets the anchor to the bottom faster." I've had chain and rope, and if the anchor is in the range we are talking, a 25# anchor will strip rode out of the locker faster than chain, particular in shallow water. This is obvious after you do it. Even more true if it is power-down windlass, as most small ones are. Then the difference is 20:1 in favor of rope. But either will take it out much faster than you drift.



"The anchor sets faster." Is there anyone here who will admit that it takes more than a few feet to get a NG anchor to set? Thus, this can't be true. As soon as the anchor turns, it bites. In soft mud, the harsh jerk of chain is the worst thing. Nylon often results in a faster set because the force is more steady.



Panic. Yup, been there. lower the anchor, let out scope, it sets. I had an inconvenient engine stall (slight air leak, we think) a few days ago just a few hundred yards from a jetty in 20-30 knots. Only 6 feet of chain and lots of nylon. No problem. If had been all chain I would have had a problem with hitting the end of the chain HARD, compromising the hold and the windlass, unless I got a snubber on fast. the impact force at a few knots, stopping a boat, is incredible. Forget catenary, there wouldn't be that much out. With nylon, anchoring down wind is easy. So I can easily argue that in this type of situation, nylon has advantages. And I have used BOTH in this sort of circumstance.



I've had all chain. I've had all rope. They are different, but absolutes are hard to defend. I liked both. For the Chesapeake, I have no strong absolute preference, and for a smaller boat, like the OP, suggesting all chain is, well, myopic.

[T-Birder]

Nice boat btw, but reducing the weight off the bow is not going to make much if any difference to the way the boat performs and for that matter, you taking notice (no offense). The anchors you have are more than fine/good for your vessel and conditions: leave them where they are on the bow ... shorten the chain to 25 feet and no more for both anchors (more is not needed and it prevents quick and effective anchor sets); replace all rode with three braided nylon rode 300 feet, this will allow you to anchor in 30 feet of water with a 10:1 scope hold (all out) on a lee shore with the second anchor deployed when the first was at 6:1 prior to wind building. As the wind builds deploy the second anchor and pay out rode equally for both anchors allowing the boat to drift down wind. Tie off the second anchor, allowing it to grab before you reach the bitter end of the first rode, then tie off the first rode at the end. This will give you two sets, 10:1 and 4:1. Allow the first set to be your main hold by slackening the second rode. If after some time the second rode slack is taken up, you will know that you are slowly dragging ... ease the second rode again and keep watch. If after repeated drags the second rode has reached a scope of 8:1 hold fast equal tension. But likely you will have run out of water either vertical (under your keel) or horizontal (land) . And if you did end up on shore with two anchors deployed as such , well you're not supposed to be out in hurricanes anyway.
BTW , isn't every shore a lee shore in the Chesapeake sooner than later ...I suspect that's why the previous owner has two hooks at the ready, that and the Shannon 28 cutter is not exactly a pointing machine if the circumstances conspire against her, Nothing worse than a nasty sea state on shoaling lee shore with a head wind, I say.



PS Take the chain you cut off and place it beneath the floor boards at the mast step: good place for weight.