Correct Cordage for Attaching Bitter End of Chain

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Panope

I recently built a rode for a 15 ton cutter to what I call "emergency survival anchoring" standard . . . . . new build with all electric drive that could conceivably exhaust the batteries while trying to remain off the aforementioned Lee shore.

Interesting, sounds like a fun project.

May not be necessary, but I would have thought perhaps about putting a Dyneema braided chafe cover over the Dyneema section, at least near potential points of contact. Dyneema chafe cover is highly resistant to chafe, more so than single braid because of the way it is braided.

Also coating (either the single braid, or dyneema chafe cover) with maxi-jacked will also reduce chafe. Thinwater did some good testing to demonstrate this back in the day.

Something which I don't know much about is Dashew's theory that polyester would actually be preferred to nylon for these sorts of 'longish' emergency highly loaded rodes (he was mostly concerned with para-anchor rodes). A long section of polyester will certainly have 'less' elasticity than nylon, but when you get over (just say) 100' of polyester it probably has 'enough' elasticity on an absolute basis. Dashew thought that nylon had serious weaknesses - internal heating and strength loss when in wet (there may have been other concerns I dont remember fully). IDK if those are actual concerns - I have certainly not run into them but I also never deployed a para-anchor in true anger (survival condition) nor an emergency anchor drop on a lee shore, so IDK.

[Cheechako]

Nylon is good because it stretches. No shock if your chain freefalls out.

[Panope]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

....... Dyneema chafe cover is highly resistant to chafe, more so than single braid because of the way it is braided.

Also coating (either the single braid, or dyneema chafe cover) with maxi-jacked will also reduce chafe.......

I figured chafe sleeve might to creep up or down the dyneema when rubbing on the bobstay because the point of contact will grow and shrink as the bow pitches. Would a something like a lock stitch be enough to keep it in place?

Had not heard of MaxiJacket. Might have to pick up a jar. Does that product make the line noticably stiffer?

Steve

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Something which I don't know much about is Dashew's theory that polyester would actually be preferred to nylon for these sorts of 'longish' emergency highly loaded rodes (he was mostly concerned with para-anchor rodes). A long section of polyester will certainly have 'less' elasticity than nylon, but when you get over (just say) 100' of polyester it probably has 'enough' elasticity on an absolute basis. Dashew thought that nylon had serious weaknesses - internal heating and strength loss when in wet (there may have been other concerns I dont remember fully). IDK if those are actual concerns - I have certainly not run into them but I also never deployed a para-anchor in true anger (survival condition) nor an emergency anchor drop on a lee shore, so IDK.

Some of those concerns can be mitigated by just using bigger nylon. It'll be less stretchy and you'll be loading it to a lower portion of its strength, so its weaknesses will be less apparent. But there's nothing wrong with using a minimally stretchy rope rode, just treat it like chain and add a snubber for more stretch.

[jtsailjt]

I like nylon as a snubber because of its elasticity but for the purpose cited by the OP, I think dyneema is much better. If you unintentionally come to the end of your chain while letting it out or due to slipping of your windlass clutch, it's probably going to be happening slowly, so shock loading isn't an issue. If your chain is paying out fast enough for shock loading to be an issue, think about how much elasticity is in a 6' or 8' piece of nylon? Not much. Also, if shock loads are a worry, what are you worried about damaging, and do you think a 6' piece of nylon will have enough elasticity to lessen the shock loading a significant amount and prevent damage? Then, there's the issue of what size nylon to use. If you're planning on the elasticity of nylon to save you from shock loading damage, then the nylon needs to be thick enough to not break under a pretty high load since it will be trying to prevent your 50,000# boat from moving backwards and that leads to the question of how will you fasten this thick nylon rope to your chain? Unless you plan to use 3 strand and splice it, you're limited to whatever size will fit through a link of your chain, I think tying a bowline is not an option because that might be too bulky to come up through the hawse without jamming but any knot tied with nylon that's of adequate strength is going to be somewhat bulky. Before I switched to dyneema, I used nylon in a loop so it passed through a link in the chain and back down through the hawse so the knot remained in the chain locker so that's an option. But I think that anyone who thinks that such a short length of nylon is going to offer both adequate strength and enough elasticity to make a difference is kidding themself.

I appreciate the elasticity of nylon but in order to take advantage of it you need to have adequate sized line of an appropriate length. I actually have 2 nylon snubbers aboard and they both are around 40' long, so there's room for enough stretching to happen to do some good. I have a pretty small diameter one that's for everyday use in benign conditions, primarily to keep the chain from making noise as it moves slightly over the anchor roller, but I also have a second, heavier one that I used recently when anchored for 4 days with my boat straining and lurching in 25-35 knot winds. i think that in those conditions the thinner one would have possibly broken or at least have been badly fatigued. Also, in winds that strong, the forces were high enough to allow the thicker nylon rope's elasticity to come into play.

So, that's why I like dyneema for the OP's stated purpose but I also like the idea of splicing 100' or so of nylon rode onto the end of your chain because it would clearly indicate that you've come to the end of your chain and it's long enough and strong enough to actually provide the elasticity that many posters are looking for. I have never needed more than my 300' of chain but I recognize that such places exist so having an extra 100' of nylon rode already spliced to the end of my chain seems like a very useful option at a very small cost. The only disadvantage I can see is that once I inadvertantly let out too much chain and was into the nylon portion, I'd have lost my ability to retrieve it unless I could motor forward so I could loop the nylon around my windlass enough times to get some traction. But probably worth that tradeoff to have a nice, stretchy extra 100' of rode that automatically comes into play when needed.

[s/v Jedi]

I use 50’ of 8mm single braid polypropylene. It cushions the chain in the locker, no shock because all chain can go to the seabed before it runs out, it floats and is strong enough to get the chain back aboard.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Panope

chafe sleeve might to creep up or down the dyneema when rubbing o

MaxiJacket. Does that product make the line noticably stiffer?

On the sleeve, if you splice the ends in, it will not (or should not) creep up/down. The splice is essentially just burying the ends of the sleeve into the center of the single braid - dead easy to do. For a typical length sleeve, like up to 3m, that should hold it all secure. For longer than that, idk what the best approach is, but some intermediate lock stitching might be useful (or still might not be necessary with a tightly braided jacket).

Some of the other coatings do make the line stiffer, but maxi jacket really does not. It is essentially identical to the colored OEM urethane coatings. It does fade from uv, and does wear off/rub off during use, so might need to be reapplied after some use.

[edlepera]

I look at it this way. When the anchor chain runs away it can break bones when it come out around the windlass. Having a line too strong could rip the padeye out of the bulkhead. I have used an anchor buoy Attached directly to the anchor many times. When I had a boat the depth of the water that I anchored in was between 10 to 40 feet. I had a couple links of line meet up with snap hooks 15 feet30 feet and 60 feet of flotation line. I would snaps a small flotation ball to one end and just snap hook the other one onto the anchor.

[earthbm]

So I’ve read through the thread and still can’t fully see why I need a thin line at the end that would not engage in the windlass. Sounds like it would create a problem if all of the rode is out and you want to winch the anchor back. Why is it better than just lashing the rode itself to the padeye?

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by earthbm

So I’ve read through the thread and still can’t fully see why I need a thin line at the end that would not engage in the windlass. Sounds like it would create a problem if all of the rode is out and you want to winch the anchor back. Why is it better than just lashing the rode itself to the padeye?

The advantage of a thin line that’s long enough to come up on deck is that it gives you the ability to cut your anchor loose if necessary without going down into your chain locker. Attach the thin line 3’ or 4’ from the end of your chain so your chain will still be engaged in the windlass with the end of the chain still hanging down into the locker so you also still have the option of retrieving your chain if desired.

[Nepidae]

I may have missed this reply but I'd ask, why?

That is why you want to do what you are planning?

You don't mention how much chain you are bringing on board.

You don't mention how deep you usually are anchoring,

I have 150` of chain, backed (spliced to the chain) by 250` of 8 plait and the 8 plait has a shake on the end that is attached to a fitting in the anchor locker that is hard fastened to the hull.

If you want just chain then buy more and attach it to a stop in the locker or to some other fixed point on the boat with a shakle.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

The advantage of a thin line that’s long enough to come up on deck is that it gives you the ability to cut your anchor loose if necessary without going down into your chain locker. Attach the thin line 3’ or 4’ from the end of your chain so your chain will still be engaged in the windlass with the end of the chain still hanging down into the locker so you also still have the option of retrieving your chain if desired.

I wouldn't advise that, actually.


If the chain stays engaged in the gypsy, then if the windlass is stuck on or if you're powering it down and don't notice you reached the end (guilty as charged), you'll rip the thin line out of the eye bolt and lose your chain.


You certainly want the thin line to come out the spurling pipe and let the chain off the gypsy, so you can pull the chain back on board if it was let out accidentally.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Nepidae

I may have missed this reply but I'd ask, why?

That is why you want to do what you are planning?

You don't mention how much chain you are bringing on board.

You don't mention how deep you usually are anchoring,

I have 150` of chain, backed (spliced to the chain) by 250` of 8 plait and the 8 plait has a shake on the end that is attached to a fitting in the anchor locker that is hard fastened to the hull.

If you want just chain then buy more and attach it to a stop in the locker or to some other fixed point on the boat with a shakle.

Is this addressed to me?

You don't have this problem if you have a mixed chain/rope rode, but those of us like me with all-chain rode always have the end of the chain attached to the boat by some usually thinner rope. Usually to an eye bolt in the chain locker. This is normal practice with an all chain rode. The question was what type of cordage is best for this, and there have been some great answers.


Not relevant to the discussion, as this is the normal practice with all kinds of all-chain rode and all kinds of anchoring, but since you asked I have 100 meters (330 feet) of 12mm (1/2") chain and have anchored in up to 40 meters of water (nearly 150 feet).

[foreverfreedom]

We thought about this in a slightly different way. We use a piece of 3 strand 12mm nylon at the bitter-end, about 10 feet long. This is not secured in the anchor locker but is there merely to allow easy manipulation of the end of the chain. The final 5 meters of chain is painted solid red, and we don't use red anywhere else on the chain. When we anchor, we first attach a 10 meter length of 12mm nylon rope to the starboard bow cleat. To this is already attached a chain hook at one end, a large fender at the other, and another 10 meter length with a shackle. If we have to dump the chain for any reason, the chain hook goes straight onto the chain to secure it, then the chain is bought up from the chain locker and the shackle on the other piece of rope attached to the fender is attached to the chain any where that is convenient. Then the whole lot can be let go - and, hopefully, all recovered in due course. So far we have never had to use it!

[polbndr]

Things happen and you may have to dump your anchor and chain. We use a heavy 75' length of poly . (The kind you would tow around your ski toys). We attach to the end of the chain and tie it to the boat in the anchor locker where there is a hole in the locker divider as we are rigged for 2 anchors. We tie a large bumper on the bitter end of the heavy poly floating line so we are able to recover it when safe to do so. This allows you to mark your anchor and chain for retrieval if you have to let it go if fouled and can't bring it up or if someone drags into your ground tackle and you need to get free until safe to come back and get it. We have had to do this and it made retrieval easy-peasey.