Backing Down? Why Bother When Tide Changes

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Yesterday was the first time I could see the anchor through the water and I noted that even though we had swung almost 180 degrees from when we dropped it that the anchor had not turned at all.

This is a good observation. Many people assume that the anchor rotates every time the boat moves around the swing circle. In reality, if you set your anchor well (or the wind does it for you) then it will take a reasonable amount of wind or a very strong current before the anchor will start to rotate.

This type of picture is not unusual:

[rwidman]

Everyone is an expert on the Internet!

I learned how to anchor from reading Chapmans. Then I went out in my boat and put what I read to the test. The book said to back down so that's what I do. I'm normally anchored where there's a reversing tidal current and my Lewmar claw anchor holds my boat well.

What I have learned from reading this thread is, everyone is an expert on the Internet and many folks will go to great lengths to insult anyone who doesn't agree with them. Usually, the insult is hidden in a post such as "I would hate to be anchored downwind of someone who doesn't set his anchor." or something similar.

Some folks here should be ashamed of themselves and some should really know better. This should be a place for boaters to learn about boating, not a place for people to try to make themselves seem smarter by insulting others. When you insult someone, you don't teach them what you believe, you just either put them on the defensive or you drive them away.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by rwidman

.

....Some folks here should be ashamed of themselves and some should really know better. This should be a place for boaters to learn about boating, not a place for people to try to make themselves seem smarter by insulting others. When you insult someone, you don't teach them what you believe, you just either put them on the defensive or you drive them away.

Good point rwidman, you can only describe what you do and if others disagree, it should be done politely.

I have noticed an increase in the type of rancour and insults that simply brings marine discussions down to a childish level.

It is a shame, for I though we were here to learn from each. other

[TKDSailor]

We've always backed down- 5 trips up and down the ditch from St Pete, FL to Gloucester, Massachusetts, up through the Hudson, Erie and Oswego canals with a 45lb CQR and a 40 LB Danforth. When in the Chesapeake one year, we went up the Sassafras river when they predicted 50k winds from the SOUTH at midnight. We tucked in close to the south shore (and, of course, 5 other boats came right next to us soon after), and hunkered down with both anchors dug in. They were correct about the timing- at midnight, the wind picked up to 50 knots, but from the NORTH! We were now on a lee shore; I started the Perkins, just to be sure, but she held all through the night.

The only two times these anchors dragged was
1) in grass in Lake Ontario- they wouldn't set- we ended up going to a free dock instead.
2) 50 knots of wind in the Hudson River north of the Tappan Zee Bridge off the Washington Irving Boat Club (the CQR held, the Danforth did not, with the wind shift).

I just can't see why people don't like these two anchors. In our trips up and down the ditch, we anchored most every night in every type of bottom. To each his own, I guess. The CQR is our main anchor that always holds, once set.

BTW, we always bouy the CQR to facilitate removing it...

[rognvald]

"The only two times these anchors dragged was
1) in grass in Lake Ontario- they wouldn't set- we ended up going to a free dock instead.
2) 50 knots of wind in the Hudson River north of the Tappan Zee Bridge off the Washington Irving Boat Club (the CQR held, the Danforth did not, with the wind shift).

I just can't see why people don't like these two anchors. In our trips up and down the ditch, we anchored most every night in every type of bottom. To each his own, I guess. The CQR is our main anchor that always holds, once set."
TKD


With no intent to start another anchor war, at one time the CQR and Danforth were the "state of the art" anchors for cruisers. It was a rarity to see alternate anchors in traditional cruising grounds. In fact, we still use a 35 lb. CQR with 3/8" chain, Danforth 22H with 5/16" chain and a Fortress FX23 with 5/16" chain happily and confidently with sound anchoring techniques and attention to location, tides, sea bottom and sea state. Are the New Age anchors better: probably, according to many, but from a personal perspective I see no reason to buy another anchor if I still have confidence with my present collection. However, I have toyed with the idea of buying a Yachtsman's/Fisherman's anchor for those rocky anchorages we soon plan to visit. Anchor Du Jour? There's more than one way to skin a cat. Good luck and safe sailing.

[chala]

Originally Posted by Delancey

Talking regular everyday anchoring with a new gen anchor in areas with good holding that also have a very strong reversing current.

I know some folks are real big on backing down after they set with sustained rpms for x amount of time or whatever. Our anchor sets so quickly that lately I haven't bothered backing down if at all other than when setting the hook.

I figure the tide is going to change and the thing is going to have to turn itself around and I won't be backing it down then. Have sometimes spent three or four days in a spot without touching the anchor and without problems. Anyone else?

I

Originally Posted by Delancey

I wonder if "burying" the shank could be bad in that situation for making it harder for the whole anchor to turn while remaining engaged in the bottom and that you couldn't have situation involving side loading at the shackle attachment or even a 180 degree reversal in the load causing the anchor to pull out?

Things perhaps less likely to happen if the shank isn't buried and the fluke can more easily rotate while remaining in the bottom? Isn't the boat jerking to a stop confirming I am set?

I share that assumption.

Originally Posted by thomm225

Then there are the folks that have sailed around the world without an engine

My first sailing boats did not have engines so I am used to anchor without engine.

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

But are they using chain rode or rope?

Chain for me.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

to get it fully buried.

My experience with fully buried anchor set by backing with an engine is that the anchor is so well set that in a storm the anchor may not give and separate from the chain and this suddenly. On the other hand, dragging an anchor will give a greater chance of recovery.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

As to changing currents -- here properly setting the anchor is even more important. If the anchor is well buried, it will swivel in place

Or the shank may get bent.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by thomm225

This is my first cruising boat though so I'm wasn't the best at choosing anchorages at first and have been caught several times in onshore winds of 28 knots plus at 2am while anchored 70 yards offshore and the anchor held.................although I may have been praying a bit as the anchor rope slide back and forth.

You're lucky it was only 28 knots.

You said you don't have wide experience outside of the Bay. In my experience, the CQR actually works really well in the Bay; it loves mud and digs deep in it, and usually wind and tide are enough to get it to burrow because of the soft layer on top in the Chesapeake. But I think one day your luck may run out on you with respect to just dropping the hook and letting wind and tide set your anchor if you travel more widely.

I've had a few experiences over the years where I've dropped an anchor in very benign conditions for a temporary stop in an uncrowded place and not backed down on it and found myself dragging later. That all the evidence I need that unless you back down on an anchor, you don't know if it's really set.

I don't make a big production of it. Drop anchor, pay out rode, walk back to helm, reverse, 2000 RPM until the rode is tight and I'm not moving anymore. I have a maxprop so reverse at 2000 is pretty hefty. Done.

[Jim Cate]

My experience with fully buried anchor set by backing with an engine is that the anchor is so well set that in a storm the anchor may not give and separate from the chain and this suddenly. On the other hand, dragging an anchor will give a greater chance of recovery.

This seems to say that you have, perhaps repeatedly, had your chain break because the anchor was too well set. Further, that it is an advantage for the anchor to drag.

Neither of these statements make any sense to me, and I find that I disagree pretty strongly.

An anchor's job is to NOT drag, even under storm conditions. It is the job of the snubber to absorb shock loads, and of the chain to have adequate strength to not then break. These conditions are not difficult to achieve, and are, in fact, what most of us have accomplished in our cruising boats.

At the risk of being accused of insulting you, please do not anchor upwind of me with your dragging anchor or breaking chain.

Jim

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

We were in an anchorage in the Bahamas for a cold front passage last Monday. We sat there hanging on our delta which was well dug in while two boats with Roncas dragged merrily along with anchors sitting on their sides skipping over the bottom and refusing to set. One guy finally dove his anchor and manually stuck the point in the bottom to get it to set. From What I've been reading on the forum I thought these things were supposed to set almost instantly and never move. My delta has on occasion plowed soft sediment but it never (well at least in water clear enough I could see it) sat on its side and skipped across sand.

My experience has been exactly opposite. I dragged a Lewmar Delta all over Galveston Bay, to the point that I couldn't trust it overnight so always ended back at the dock. Got a Rocna, and have NEVER dragged - anywhere. Including two months in Bahamas last year. That said, I also have 150 ft of chain.

And I always back down a bit to set it. Frankly, I don't know why you wouldn't want to test the set immediately after setting, rather than wait until a little wind or current to tell you it isn't set.

[thinwater]

I think the OP's question was excellent for the discussion it started. We know a lot about straight line holding capacity, but rest testing is a thorny area. I've done a lot of instrumented anchor testing, looking at scope (all anchors hold less), chain/rope, snubbers, and time effects (soil liquification/consolidation). But I feel unqualified to say anything definitive. So many variables.

------

I back down to some extent (varies) primarily to get a feel for the bottom. Unless it is somewhere near home where I have anchored and snorkeled many times, this is the first "look" I get at the bottom. I know the club hauling methods can work, but I have more control with the engine and GPS. I know that I will move back X feet as the rode straightens, Y as the anchor digs in (depends on sand or mud), and then it should stop dead (GPS will tell me this). Now I know something about the bottom I did not before.

But is there trash or bad spots? I still do not know. A patch of shells can happen anywhere.

An exposed shank can foul by the rode, even with new gen. I've seen it. This is a reason to set enough to take the shank at least flush.

Will the anchor reset better if it is deep or shallow? In sand or sticky mud, a moderate set might be better. The anchor can shuffle with a shift. On the other hand, as many have explained, in moderate weather, a well set anchor may not need to shuffle (a well-set Fortress will not). A deeper set will demand that it flips out, and it may foul. On the other hand, in soft mud, it will shuffle anyway if it needs to (except for a very deep Fortress), and deeper is better, since it may not be able to grab again if it finds itself dragging rapidly on the surface, which is pudding.

But a great question. I doubt it has a single correct answer.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by chala

. . . My experience with fully buried anchor set by backing with an engine is that the anchor is so well set that in a storm the anchor may not give and separate from the chain and this suddenly. On the other hand, dragging an anchor will give a greater chance of recovery.

. . . .

Or the shank may get bent.

Yes, I agree with the last statement -- the shank may get bent if you have a big wind shift in strong conditions, and the shank is subject to a strong side pull while deeply set.

However, I cannot understand the logic of protecting the anchor by leaving it poorly set. I would rather have a damaged anchor than my boat on the rocks.

Note also Noelex's comment above -- the tide does not put any significant force on the anchor, and often no force at all. I don't dive on my anchor (up here! Brrrrr), but I know this from measuring distance to the anchor, which I mark on the plotter. If I am 80 meters from the anchor while pulling the chain tight with the engine, then after shutting down, the boat will move forward and might end up only 50 or 60 meters from the anchor (depending on the depth of course). Then when the tide changes, 50 or 60 meters on the other side. So it is obvious that the boat is being held by the friction of the chain on the bottom, and the anchor isn't working at all.

What that means is that swiveling in the bottom doesn't normally take place -- it's only in a big wind shift in strong wind.


What that also means is that the quality of the set of your anchor is not normally being tested. So the fact that you've done it 500 times without a problem, does not mean that the anchor will hold, if the wind really blows up. You don't set the anchor for the average everyday forces involved, which may not require an anchor at all -- a bunch of chain alone might well hold you. You set the anchor for the 99th percentile event, in order to be sure that you will get all the holding, the anchor is capable of, in case of an event that really requires it.


Unfortunately those events seem to occur regularly to boats anchored upwind of me. Inevitably by guys who just chuck the anchor over by hand and go below, because that's the way their fathers taught them to do it, or whatever. I've started anchoring further out, for the sake of my gel coat.

Someone said "there is no one right answer to this question" -- maybe. But objectively -- an anchor which has been set, has a far greater chance of holding, than one which is just lying on the sea bed. Maybe -- MAYBE -- wind will do your work for you, and set it by itself, so that you can be lazy and go straight to cocktail hour without doing any work. But how do you even KNOW, whether or not the wind did your work for you? If you don't check by backing down?


Like some others on here, I started sailing on boats without motors, and did it for many years. Of course you can set an anchor without a motor -- it's been done for thousands of years. Backing the mainsail does a really good job of this -- maybe better than a motor, because it's easier to get the slow, gradual increase of force which is needed for a good set.


Good anchoring technique requires SETTING the anchor -- this is fundamental.

[Delancey]

This thread kills me. I basically ask, why back down an everyday non-storm anchor once it has been set in an area of good holding and strong reversing currents because you're not going to back down again every time the tide changes are you?

I mention I am so impressed with the way my new gen anchor routinely sets so quickly causing the boat to jerk to a stop. I also mention Panope's excellent videos which clearly show new gen anchors routinely pivoting in the sea bed under a reverse pull at 1.9 knots which is well within the current range I have been experiencing.

I am told by various anchoring experts that you must back down to ensure that the anchor is "properly" set because the boat jerking to a stop is not a fair indication. That if you don't do this you will only find out later when a storm comes (forget the OP was about everyday non-storm anchoring) that you didn't really have it set. That jerking stop was deceptive.

I am told that an anchor that is "properly" set by backing down will not likely turn due to the force of the tidal current, even though this statement is clearly contradicted by Panope's videos. Did you even watch them?

Lastly, I am told that an anchor-properly-set-by-backing-down-that-hasn't-rotated and is now 180 degrees backwards to a reversing current is BETTER than a set-but-not backed-down anchor that is rotated and correctly aligned to the pull.

Oh, except forget to mention unless there is a really big wind or a storm? You know, when you need you anchor the most but you backed it down in the WRONG direction?

Then presumably you are screwed because Panope did say he observed a 180 degree pull-out failure but we won't mention that! So much for the whole backing down theory. You can't have it both ways.

Haha. Keep it coming!

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Delancey

This thread kills me. I basically ask, why back down an everyday non-storm anchor once it has been set in an area of good holding and strong reversing currents because you're not going to back down again every time the tide changes are you?

I shall certainly continue to do so. Just anchored again in a spot I know, good blast in reverse and transits held as expected. In the same spot a few days ago about half revs the anchor would drag, odd I thought but was only stopping off for a few hours so left it. Raising the anchor revealed the point had hooked through the middle of the remains of an ancient life ring so now had a big necklace. Without a good blast in reverse no way I would have known something was up.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Delancey

This thread kills me. I basically ask, why back down an everyday non-storm anchor once it has been set in an area of good holding and strong reversing currents because you're not going to back down again every time the tide changes are you?

If you don't back down on it, how did you know it was set?

[Delancey]

I know new gen anchor is set when the boat suddenly jerks to a stop and spills my drink. Diving on it confirms this.

Several ways to set an anchor without backing down on it. I am not talking about backing down to set an anchor, I am talking about backing down AFTER it has been set, which could have been achieved several different ways.

Some say backing down after setting offers some kind of proof the new gen anchor is set that the drink-spilling-jerk does not. They say once proved, anchor will not rotate due to strong currents.

They do not say anything about a 180 degree pull-out due to anchor being backed down in the wrong direction.