Sails, Why Pay Double? What am I missing?

[Blue Stocking]

Has anyone used Far East Sails.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I believe this, but don't see why it matters. As long as you know the material being used, and don't need anything special requiring the sail maker to come to the boat, it is just sewing.

Does to me when maybe 3 different lofts are using the same supplier.. and 3 different prices.
I kinda like my little sail maker in Poole.. though I've not been a customer in a while..

[oldragbaggers]

RT isn't strictly an "internet loft," and we got quite a lot of service through their Annapolis distributor, from the measurements, to helping us choose options and understand what we need based on exactly how we plan to use the sail. Terry spent the better part of an afternoon with us discussing our plans and needs, showing us samples of cloth, hardware, and finished sails and a video tour of thier Phuket loft. There was probably a dozen follow up phone calls. The sail might be made over there, but everything about it was designed personally for us. We didn't feel in any way that we weren't getting good personalized service. We plan to buy all future sails from them. As "low-tech sailors" we can find lots of other things to do with our money. What we saved on sails more than paid for our new furling gear.

[Cruisingscotts]

Running a business in different countries is not goign to cost the same nor will a sourced product that is exactly the same cost the same everywhere. People charge diffrent rates for their intilectual property and expertise often times based on where they are.

What is the point of rating one loft over another because they don't meet some magical value index?

A hand built, lofted and cut sail with hand sewn rings and finish work probably takes twice as long to build than a cad one CNC'd with pressed rings and no or minimal hand work. Does it sail any better? Who knows all depends on who designed it and what they used. Will is last any longer? Who knows depends on who built it and what they used.

[zstine]

So I've more or less made up my mind to buy Rolly Tasker. Frankly I hear "the local loft spends an afternoon sailing with you".. etc. and you'll get a sail better suited. Fine, but at more that $2000 premium in price, they can spend an afternoon on someone else's boat! I personally think it's BS that they change the cut of the sail b/c the way you sail the boat or b/c they measure your mast bend. If they do, the performance difference is minimal and certainly not worth doubling the price. I believe they put basic dimensions into a modeling program that spits out the pattern to cut... done. I think there is little human in the design of cruising sails. It's not cost effective. If lofts are doing this, it is bad business.

LET ME ASK A DIFFERENT QUESTION (again)... Now that I selected a maker, How do you value the differences in cloth? In other words, I can get 'challenge performance offshore high mass UV resistant' cloth for say $9/yd, or Marblehead for $15/yd. and some in-between. Why, as a cruiser, would Marblehead be a good investment over the cheap stuff? I understand it has less stretch. That is a performance characteristic, and while I want to perform, by far cost and long life is more important to me. Marblehead won't out last the cheaper cloth as far as I know...?
DOES ANYONE Cruise with high tenacity cloth like Marblehead? If so, why did you choose that over a less expensive material?

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by oldragbaggers

Rolly Tasker sails are made in Thailand at one of the oldest (since 1949), largest lofts in the world, not China. We bought our mainsail from them last year. We worked with their Annapolis office and the service was wonderful, the sail is beautiful, and we will be having them make our new furling headsail this year as well. We had purchased one of their sails years ago through Sail Warehouse, that one was "off the shelf," but we were happy with it. ...

A charter fleet I used to work with often used Rolly Tasker sails bought thru Sail Warehouse too. The logic was to put cheap sails on the boats while in charter, where they had fair odds of getting trashed anyway.

After years of use on a variety of boats, we were quite pleased with them.

[zstine]

Originally Posted by Cruisingscotts

.....
What is the point of rating one loft over another because they don't meet some magical value index?

A hand built, lofted and cut sail with hand sewn rings and finish work probably takes twice as long to build than a cad one CNC'd with pressed rings and no or minimal hand work. Does it sail any better? Who knows all depends on who designed it and what they used. Will is last any longer? Who knows depends on who built it and what they used.

Yes Cruisingscotts! When the answer is "Who Knows" as it seems to be when buying sails. Then the obvious thing to do is minimize risk by purchasing the least expensive sail available... just plain logic.

[Cheechako]

There is a difference even if the sails are made from the same cloth. The key is.. who will pay attention to details? A stitch is not a stitch... necessarily. Tensioning on both sides of the thread is important etc. What about the thread?
Then there is the question of how is the chafing protection and design of those things?
Douible stitched? single? triple?
Do you have more confidence if your sail is run thru a factory of low paid sewing people? or done by someone who name is on the business? and has been for decades?
I have seen a new set of inexpensive Chinese sails on a boat, they looked ok until you looked at the details.. stitching, lack of reinforcing and undersize cringles. Unfortunately I cant remember if they were Lee or Far East sails at this point.

[oldragbaggers]

Here's what our sail came with - standard features:
– Individual Sail design
– Premium Dacron Crosscut High Aspect or Marblehead
– Seams three rows zig-zag stitching with UV stabilised thread
– Stainless steel rings reinforced with webbing and leather over webbing
– Hand sewn leather reinforcements on wear points
– Extra heavy radial patches
– Extra large or double tapes with a minimum of 2 stitching rows
– Heavy duty batten pockets with Velcro lock or tie in type
– Mainsails are constructed with alloy headboards and webbed / shackled on luff hardware
– Low stretch leech line with Clam Cleat
– Two draft stripes for visual reference of draft position
– Full rows of Tell-tales
– XL sail bag

And from the presentation we saw of the Rolly Tasker loft it was a very sophisticated operation. I do not for one minute assume that America is the only country with skilled workers.

[sailorboy1]

All I know is that I've taken my head sail to the local Doyle loft twice in the past 5 years to have the same thing sown up by those highly skilled US local loft hands.

[ka4wja]

zstine,
I hope I didn't stir the pot too much!



1) I'm not sure where you are at, nor whether Travis would go sailing with 'ya! (He's never been sailing with me! )
But, if you call him, asks some pointed questions, and get a quote from him, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised...
(depending on the sail, I suspect it will be less than North, Quantum, Doyle, UK, etc....mine was!)

Originally Posted by zstine

So I've more or less made up my mind to buy Rolly Tasker. Frankly I hear "the local loft spends an afternoon sailing with you".. etc. and you'll get a sail better suited. Fine, but at more that $2000 premium in price, they can spend an afternoon on someone else's boat!

I think you may be reading between the lines of some other posts here???





2) Here, I mostly agree with 'ya!

Originally Posted by zstine

I personally think it's BS that they change the cut of the sail b/c the way you sail the boat or b/c they measure your mast bend. If they do, the performance difference is minimal and certainly not worth doubling the price. I believe they put basic dimensions into a modeling program that spits out the pattern to cut... done. I think there is little human in the design of cruising sails. It's not cost effective. If lofts are doing this, it is bad business.

And, I may have missed it here where this was suggested??
Recommending a different sail, different cloth, different weight, etc., and even a different design/cut....but I doubt they cut everyone's sail "differently"...





3) But, regardless of all the rhetoric, my advice still holds...
Call Mack Sails, talk to Travis, ask some questions, get his input, and get a quote....
If it doesn't meet your budget and/or doesn't suit your requirements, all you're out is a phone call and a couple of minutes of your time....(and, if you report it back here, and you tell me I'm a idiot for my recommendation, I promise to not be offended, and I will offer you my apologies!)
FYI, you don't have to be in Florida to use Mack Sails!
They ship worldwide / have customers worldwide!!
(and they WILL travel to measure/fit if needed!)


BTW, while I have no personal experience with Rolly Tasker (as I do with Mack, North, and Doyle), I have heard good things about them!



4) And, as for the sails built by different lofts, using the same cloth being the same???
That has not been my experience at all...and not borne out by most here...

So, while I understand that nobody should pay double the price for a "name", or the "privilege" of personal service, the fact is that sometimes you DO get what you pay for!




5) And, YES....
I do "cruise" with Challenge Marblehead cloth....my Mack Sails genoa is made from it!!
And, I personally know of > a dozen of my friends with sisterships (and a few other friends sailing on Hinckleys and one couple on a Hylas), that also cruise with Marblehead cloth!!

And, in my experience it IS worth it....
Will you think the same???
I have no idea...
But until you talk to them, and get a quote, neither will you....yes??



Again, sorry if I stirred things up too much....
But, if you read the other threads I referenced, you'll see that I'm not alone in my experiences...

Fair winds..

John


P.S. If you told us where you at located, and a bit more about your precise application, some here may be able to offer some more detailed advice/recommendations...

[Jim Cate]

LET ME ASK A DIFFERENT QUESTION (again)... Now that I selected a maker, How do you value the differences in cloth? In other words, I can get 'challenge performance offshore high mass UV resistant' cloth for say $9/yd, or Marblehead for $15/yd. and some in-between. Why, as a cruiser, would Marblehead be a good investment over the cheap stuff? I understand it has less stretch. That is a performance characteristic, and while I want to perform, by far cost and long life is more important to me. Marblehead won't out last the cheaper cloth as far as I know...?
DOES ANYONE Cruise with high tenacity cloth like Marblehead? If so, why did you choose that over a less expensive material?

Does Anyone??? Well, i dunno about Marblehead, but I have switched to Hydranet, which is a bit dearer than Marblehead, even.

Why? Well, it is because it will stand up to the rigors of cruising AND maintain its shape longer than any dacron weave. If you define a sails useful life as when it self destructs, that is one value. If you define it as how long it maintains the carefully engineered shape the sailmaker put into it, that's quite a different value.

We just now completed our first sail with our new genoa, made from 8 oz radial Hydranet. Our previous genoa was ~7 years and 35,000 miles old. Made from the best warp oriented radial dacron available at the time of construction. It still looked oK, but the sacrificial strip needed replacing... and the shape was pretty bad, it turns out. With the new sail, we were pointing far higher and sailing faster, and heeling less. All good factors IMO. Best we saw was just under nine knots through the water, 28 to 30 degrees apparent, 18-20 knots apparent. It wasn't always that good, of course, but with the old sail it wasn't even close at the best of times. My experience with our Hydranet main leads me to expect the sail to not stretch under normal or even overstressed conditions... two plus years of abuse and still maintaining its original shape.

OK, how much extra did this cost me? Here are the quotes for different materials and cuts, all from our Tasmanian sailmaker, a fellow whom we have come to trust. The sail is a roller genoa of about 46 sq meters, with all the usual appurtenances.

Cross cut, best quality dacron: 3140 USD
Radial, cruising laminate: 3710 usd
RAdial, Hydranet seconds*:4095 USD
Radial, Pro Radial Dacron (best available for radial design ): 3955 usd
Radial, Hydranet firsts: 5250 usd

*Hydranet seconds have cosmetic flaws, widely spaced. This sailmaker is willing to spend the time ensuring that the flaws end up in the scrap, of which there is a lot in a radial sail. There are none that I have found in the finished product.

I am willing to pay the premium for both radial design and the Hydranet material, and realize that not everyone will be so. For me, the likelihood of the sail performing well for years is a big factor. Not so for everyone...
Making the jump to a mail order sail pushes even more questionable factors into the equation. I've seen some very nicely made Oriental sails (can't tell a thing visually about the material... it was white and fairly stiff!). I've seen some that had very nice hand work in places. I've seen some that didn't fit the boat well, and some whose shape looked all wrong to me. A very mixed bag, and I dunno where Rolly T fits into the picture. But, if the sail does not satisfy you when it arrives, what then? Your guess as to how satisfactory the service will be in terms of convenience, time and cost of shipping.

Apparently the practice for some far east lofts is to have a local rep come to measure your boat... seems that RT does that, and a respondent upthread reported a good experience. But what if you don't live in a boating mecca, and there is no rep for the loft of your choice? Who does the critical measuring? Who fields the complaints if there is a problem? Who repacks and ships backk a defective sail? You guess...

Sorry about the long winded post... everyone is entitled to spend their cruising bucks the way that seems best to them. But for those who say that there is no practical difference between different materials, lofts and sailmakers... well, you remind me of those who can't seem to see the difference between a Swan and a bennie, if all ya wanna do is go sailing.

I'm happy with my new sail, and I hope that everyone else is happy with theirs.

Jim

[Kenomac]

You guys are paying way to much for low end materials and cut. We received the best quotes from a premium loft in the UK. Mainsail replacement for a 54ft cutter was under $7500 for a DYS triradial cut including Sailcoat, batons and mast furling.

[FSMike]

Originally Posted by zstine

-----the obvious thing to do is minimize risk by purchasing the least expensive sail available... just plain logic.

Or -
the obvious thing to do is minimize risk by purchasing the highest quality sail available... just plain logic.

Ya pays yer money and ya makes yer choice lol.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You guys are paying way to much for low end materials and cut. We received the best quotes from a premium loft in the UK. Mainsail replacement for a 54ft cutter was under $7500 for a DYS triradial cut including Sailcoat, batons and mast furling.

So, Ken, which "you guys" are you referring to?

And do remember that in mast sails are way less expensive and less technically challenging than slab reefing/ horizontal batten (not batons, for goodness sakes) sails.

Jim