Sail loft/sail recommendations?

[blinkerfluid]

So, I'm sure this is a bit like asking what the best anchor is.. but I'm hoping some knowledgeable people can help me decide where to get new sails for my boat and what sails to get.

The boat is an Island Packet 420 with an in-mast furling main, genoa and staysail. We are outfitting the boat for an open ended cruise, so would like sails that are durable and long lasting.. but I still understand the importance of shape holding and don't want to end up with sails that, while won't fall apart for 30 years, have a practically useless shape after a couple seasons.

I have read quite a few threads about sails and where to get them, and nearly every article/thread I've read suggests traditional crosscut dacron sails for long term cruising, but then nearly all those articles/threads are a decade or more old now. Are crosscut dacron sails that utilize 50 year old technology still the best option? Or should I consider something like North's 3Di Nordac/etc.?

I guess my issue is that every sail maker has a shiny brochure that states why they're the best sail maker in all the land and why everyone else is garbage. I can't tell you how many times I've read something along the lines of "We only use the finest sail cloth from the worlds best sail cloth makers". I really just want to find a sailmaker that I can trust will sell me what I need, built to the specs that I need for what our plans are; especially because I don't know what I need.

[psk125]

Crosscut dacron seems to hold up well, long term. At least it seems to. The cloth doesn’t wear out quickly and the seams last a long time if they use the right thread. We have a sail we still use for deliveries that was made by a loft that went out of business more than 25 years ago. So the sail looks presentable, even if it is totally blown out from the sailmaker or racer’s perspective. Despite perhaps being totally blown out, old dacron sails are still able to push the boat forward, so long-term sailors find they don’t have to buy new. What they have works for them, so they don’t complain. They aren’t worried about a passage taking an extra day because of ‘slow' sails. Bagged out burlap sails will still push a boat forward, but they won’t last as long, so people don’t use them unless they have to.

If you’re in Florida, Mack and Schurr sails might be good candidates for you. They’re smaller than the mega lofts, and perhaps would be more willing and able to listen to and help you develop YOUR needs than bigger outfits. The firms that do more volume may be able to charge less, but it depends upon what you need. We found Schurr very attentive and detail-oriented, and have an entire suit from them: two spinnakers, three jibs and a mainsail.

[blinkerfluid]

Well I'm not so worried about the speed aspect of the sails, but I do want to minimize heeling as much as I can, and it seems (from what I've read) that baggy sails cause the boat to heel more. I think that's really what's driving my interest in sails that hold their shape longer. I definitely don't want to be buying sails every 3 or 4 years though because I'm worried about them failing catastrophically. So if my options are sails that lose their shape sooner, or sails that literally blow apart; I'll definitely stick with the ones that lose their shape.

Thanks! I've looked at Mack before and spoke with them briefly at the Annapolis boat show; I know they have a pretty good reputation. I'll look into Schurr as well, I hadn't heard about them before.

[VanIslandGuy]

Two different lifespans of sails.

Performance lifespan and overall lifespan.

Cross cut Dacron will give a great overall lifespan (10-20 years) but the period of the sail providing "original" performance will be short.(1-2 years), then expect the draft to start inching slowly aft.

Radial cut laminates and membranes sails tend to keep their performance profile much longer (8-12 years), but won't last overall as long as Dacron. A good taffeta on a laminate though really helps durability.

Visit some sail lofts and interview some people. I'd avoid the internet lofts if you are new to buying sails. We used our local UK loft and were really pleased. North Sails, Evolution, and Doyle were all very good too when we were investigating who to go with. If a good loft is close to home I'd start there as they will likely be your go to for repairs in the future. Going from old baggy sails to new ones really makes it easier to make the boat sail higher and with less heel for the same given wind conditions, but it ain't a cheap process.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by blinkerfluid

I have read quite a few threads about sails and where to get them, and nearly every article/thread I've read suggests traditional crosscut dacron sails for long term cruising, but then nearly all those articles/threads are a decade or more old now. Are crosscut dacron sails that utilize 50 year old technology still the best option? Or should I consider something like North's 3Di Nordac/etc.?

I can't tell you how many times I've read something along the lines of "We only use the finest sail cloth from the worlds best sail cloth makers". I really just want to find a sailmaker that I can trust will sell me what I need, built to the specs that I need for what our plans are; especially because I don't know what I need.

So it comes down to the quality of the sail cloth and the problem is who to believe. I also found it quite difficult to put the various cloths into some sort of pecking order. However, this article from a very respected UK sail maker was useful and has recently been updated. Mack sails used to have something similar on their website.

Sanders Sails: Materials | Sailmaking, Sailmakers, Yacht Marine Upholstery, Dinghies, Boat Design | Lymington, South Coast, Hampshire

Both Vectron and Hydranet have good reputation and I will certainly consider them next time around. Just be aware that Hydranet is great for tri radial, but there is a cross cut cloth version, sadly not as good as the tri radial cloth.

You could go to a laminate sail which would give great shape, reduced weight aloft and hope to get 5 or 6 years out of them.

What was disappointing is the previous owner paid a huge amount of money for sails made with Contenders Super Cruise. The sails fell apart in 10 years of gentle coastal cruising with sails removed each winter. I didn't want to repeat that mistake so chose a better quality cloth over the cheap cloth varieties and then a local loft I felt I could trust.

Pete

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by Pete7

What was disappointing is the previous owner paid a huge amount of money for sails made with Contenders Super Cruise. The sails fell apart in 10 years of gentle coastal cruising with sails removed each winter. I didn't want to repeat that mistake so chose a better quality cloth over the cheap cloth varieties and then a local loft I felt I could trust.

Pete

Actually from my perspective 10 years before falling apart would have been something of a bonus. My current cruising genoa had to be extensively restitched after just three years after starting to fall apart during a trip back from the islands. I was told by the loft that that was “normal” and in fact claimed that sails should be “serviced” annually. They charged me a couple of hundred dollars to restitch. That was a first for me in four decades of boat ownership.

I have a mainsail from the same company, different loft, different era, which is now at least 13 years old that I know of (came with the boat) and has never been restitched or even repaired during my ownership and still requires no attention. And the jib that came with the boat is in similar shape, only replaced because it was 100%, the new one is 135%.

I believe the question to ask a loft is not so much what cloth is being offered but what thread.

[Pete7]

The final tear was 4 feet long horizontally across a panel in F4 downwind.

Whilst I could understand the cloth being stretched at 50N so not huge amounts of sun, it shouldn't have failed like that.

The replacement I think is now 9 years old and much better. The replacement sail was also cheaper overall but with a better quality German cloth, so was worth shopping around.

Pete

[SailtheWind]

Originally Posted by blinkerfluid

So, I'm sure this is a bit like asking what the best anchor is.. but I'm hoping some knowledgeable people can help me decide where to get new sails for my boat and what sails to get.

I will only provide an answer to the "where to get" question and leave the "what sails" to people more knowledgeable.

I have used American Cruising Sails in Erie PA 814 456 7245
ask for AJ he is one of the owners.
American Cruising Sails – Sailmaker
They are now affiliated with Elvstrøm sails the famous Danish sail maker.

I have found AJ most knowledgeable and always willing to go the extra mile.
This past season they made an asymmetrical spinnaker for my boat and I am most happy with the results.

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by blinkerfluid

I have read quite a few threads about sails and where to get them, and nearly every article/thread I've read suggests traditional crosscut dacron sails for long term cruising, but then nearly all those articles/threads are a decade or more old now. Are crosscut dacron sails that utilize 50 year old technology still the best option? Or should I consider something like North's 3Di Nordac/etc.?

Yes it is still likely the best option for a open ended cruise on a IP420. From what I have seen of 3DI nordac, the sails are not made with long term cruising in mind.
You should note that not all cross-cut dacron is the same. 30 years ago it was more similar but now there is a much bigger range. You get what you pay for, and the cloth from Europe seems to be better quality i.e. Dimension Polyant and Fibercon, but you do pay for it.
The devil is also in the details. I wrote a couple of blog posts about bluewater details here https://www.zoomsails.com/articles/archives/11-2017
We're located about half way on most peoples around the world passage, so get to see what works, and what doesn't work!

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

Actually from my perspective 10 years before falling apart would have been something of a bonus. My current cruising genoa had to be extensively restitched after just three years after starting to fall apart during a trip back from the islands. I was told by the loft that that was “normal” and in fact claimed that sails should be “serviced” annually. They charged me a couple of hundred dollars to restitch. That was a first for me in four decades of boat ownership.

I have a mainsail from the same company, different loft, different era, which is now at least 13 years old that I know of (came with the boat) and has never been restitched or even repaired during my ownership and still requires no attention. And the jib that came with the boat is in similar shape, only replaced because it was 100%, the new one is 135%.

I believe the question to ask a loft is not so much what cloth is being offered but what thread.

If it was the thread on the body of the sail, then it shouldn't have gone after three years. On the UV cover its more normal as most lofts are just using polyester UV thread which lasts 3-6 years depending on the brand ( and luck ). Tenara thread is much better and outlasts any fabric, but its hard to sew with.

[ka4wja]

blinkerfluid,
1) Dacron it is, for most of us...of course, improvements in laminated sails (primarily their lifespan) does mean that a very small number of cruising boats with the budget / desire, and ability to take advantage (performance boats), do go with laminated sails...

But, the fact is for most (99%) it is Dacron!

As for what type of Dacron (polyester cloth), there is a big difference...
See links for details of sail cloth...
http://macksails.com/sail-cloth/
http://macksails.com/sails/



2) As for sail lofts....in my opinion some of the confusion about sail cloth and sail-making amongst many sailors is because they usually only get to speak to sail salesmen, not the actual sailmaker....(you know the guy who designs the sails)...
But, when you talk to Mack Sails, the guys you talk to are sailmakers, not sail salesmen....(oh, and they're sailors too!)

Call Mack Sails, ask to speak to Travis (one of the owners), and tell him I (john MacDougall) recommended that you call.
[btw, they are still making sails during the Covid19 crisis, but are shorter staffed...their rigging/electronics crews are safe-at-home]

Mack Sails
772-283-2306
www.macksails.com


A few details you'll notice about Mack Sails...
a) As I mentioned, Travis and his brother Colin Mack (who jointly own and run Mack Sails, and whose Dad owned Mack-Shaw Sails in Ft. Lauderdale in the 70's), are both sailors and sailmakers, not just sail salesmen.

When I write "sailmaker" I mean they understand the intricacies of sails, sail shape, aerodynamics, etc. etc. as well as cloths, sail construction, etc....Travis is not like almost every other sailmaker you'll meet, as most of them are sail salesmen / reps, not the actual sailmakers...

And, when I write sailors, understand that they both grew up sailing and cruising in S. FL and Bahamas....and both still own sailboats and continue to sail regularly...(as well as most of their employees)

These qualities combine to give you the information you need to buy the right sail for your boat and application...


b) Mack Sails designs and builds (CAD systems, cutting, sewing, stitching, etc.) their own sails, right in their own loft in Stuart, FL.....using only hi-quality US-made cloths / materials...


c) I've been doing business with them for quiet some time....and my brother before me....and my parents before that (and actually my parents did business with their Dad as well, back in the 70's at Mack-Shaw Sails)....and I've never been disappointed!!


3) BTW, many years ago, Mack Sails (and rigging) started doing marine electronics (and some refrigeration, as they have experience in hot weather refrigeration requirements)....and have grown their rigging and electronics business to be one the premier sailboat marine electronics dealers in Florida...

Last year, they needed more room and more personnel for their electronics / service side, so Colin Mack took this branch totally under his control, as Mack Service, although they still work together, this allows both of them to concentrate on their specific talents..
http://macksails.com/rigging-electronics/




Have a look at the links I posted above, and I suspect that you'll learn a good deal about sail cloth and sailmaking that other lofts will never tell you....and then give 'em a call, tell I sent you, and they'll take great care of you...(you'll get great, high performance sails, that will last a long time, and be very happy!)



BTW, my Mack Sails genoa will be 15 years old this fall....has been across the Atlantic twice....and is still in great shape!!
I'm a very happy customer!!

I hope this helps...

Fair winds..

John

[Kestrahl]

Nice plug for Mack! Although they still have their issues, the point about working with a actual sailmaker and supporting locally made is valid. And they seem well liked, and not for giving cheap prices!

Just wanted to point out that their sailcloth page is a bit outdated and only compares Challenge cloth. For example Dupont 52 yarn hasn't been made for 18 years. Marblehead is still around but its woven from different yarns (Fiber 104). Challenge actually recommend their cheaper (not US made) Fastnet range for offshore cruising over Marblehead which they consider a performance dacron. The yarns they use now are possibly more susceptible to UV than the old Dacron 52 or Allied yarns ( its hard to know without a sample of the old cloth to test), but the Marblehead didn't do well in my UV tests- which is probably why they recommend Fastnet.

I was thinking of writing a article to help people understand different dacron's as there is so much variance in price and quality now. For something that looks very similar and simple, it is actually very complicated.

[Jim Cate]

I was thinking of writing a article to help people understand different dacron's as there is so much variance in price and quality now. For something that looks very similar and simple, it is actually very complicated.

I know that I would appreciate such a compendium! I reckon that selecting an intelligently designed and spec'd suit of sails is perhaps the most technically challenging thing a yottie ever has to do. When one throws non-Dacron materials into the mix (Hydra Net, laminates, string sails, taped sails and, of course, "rip stop polyester" along with all the variations of panel layout, roach, square heads and other features, well, it is boggling, at least to me!

Some of the big lofts have some guidance available, but it always seems to have sales pitches woven into the info, so an impartial assessment would be very useful to me, and I suspect to a lot of other CFers.

Jim

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by Kestrahl

I was thinking of writing a article to help people understand different dacron's as there is so much variance in price and quality now. For something that looks very similar and simple, it is actually very complicated.

Please do!

And why don't you pitch it to thinwater (Forum Member who recently began the "How do we go sailing again?" thread) who is an editor at Good Old Boat magazine where we could all go and read it.

Warmly,
LittleWing77