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Old 30-09-2020, 22:56   #1
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Riggers want to replace my furlers!

I need to replace the rigging on a large 61ft cat.

Rigging is in perfect condition, shows no wear, but is 27yo.

Furlers (Genoa / Solent) are Harken MkII - riggers want to replace both as "parts not available, and they normally replace all tension components"

Any ideas / suggestions other than "replace expensive furlers that are in excellent condition?"

Thanks
Paul
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Old 30-09-2020, 23:20   #2
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Re: Riggers want to replace my furlers!

The only things I have found which require replacement on furlers are the seals and bearings.

Are you sure they want to replace the entire furlers or just the rigging wires running through them?
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Old 30-09-2020, 23:23   #3
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Re: Riggers want to replace my furlers!

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Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
The only things I have found which require replacement on furlers are the seals and bearings.

Are you sure they want to replace the entire furlers or just the rigging wires running through them?
They indicated some internal parts are in tension and specific to Harken.
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Old 01-10-2020, 00:38   #4
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Re: Riggers want to replace my furlers!

you are kidding, right ? the rigging is 27 years old and you are concerned about replacing it ?

how do you know "Rigging is in perfect condition, shows no wear" ? have you been over it with a magnifying glass...or just stood on the deck and looked up at the mast ?.

imho any rig which is 27 yrs old will have a host of issues and should have been replaced at least 10 years ago.

as for the furlers : 60'+ is a big lump of boat. do you really want to risk your gear failing ? how are you going to deal with things if it does ? long experience has taught me that stuff will always fail at the worst time so my advice is don't be a cheapskate and try to cut corners...do it once and do it RIGHT...

if you don't trust your rigger, why are you using him ?

cheers,
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Old 01-10-2020, 01:26   #5
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Re: Riggers want to replace my furlers!

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Originally Posted by nfbr View Post
They indicated some internal parts are in tension and specific to Harken.
Possibly, or they may not want to pull down older furlers to rethread the stay wire.

It would help if the OP posted some images.
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Old 01-10-2020, 01:32   #6
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Re: Riggers want to replace my furlers!

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Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
Possibly, or they may not want to pull down older furlers to rethread the stay wire.

It would help if the OP posted some images.
Pics attached

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Old 01-10-2020, 01:44   #7
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Re: Riggers want to replace my furlers!

Do you know what parts are required?
Have you tried sourcing those parts yourself?
It is often a case of the riggers "usual" supplier not having them rather than them not being available at all. The rigger may not sell Harken therefore not have a good supply chain for their parts.

Contact Harken HQ and find out if the parts are no longer available.


Not that it will bother you but if you need to replace Profurl use commercially available seals and bearings not specific to Profurl.
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Old 01-10-2020, 02:02   #8
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Re: Riggers want to replace my furlers!

They look like the Harken Mark II furlers on my boat. All the tensile loading is taken by the stay wire running up through the drum and the foil. The only tensile loading is on the swivel at the top and the drum at the bottom and there is none on the foil.

The furlers do not need replacement however I would replace the bearings and wiper seals whilst you had them down to replace the stay wires.
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Old 01-10-2020, 02:10   #9
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Re: Riggers want to replace my furlers!

Interesting,I know of one rig that went up in 1983-4 , 1-19 ss hood furler ,steel 38ft Alan Payne design now has over 60k mostly offshore miles ,owner says it still looks good , and despite pleads has no intention of re rigging ,lucky or wot . Keep smiling .⛵️��
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Old 01-10-2020, 02:14   #10
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Re: Riggers want to replace my furlers!

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Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
They look like the Harken Mark II furlers on my boat. All the tensile loading is taken by the stay wire running up through the drum and the foil. The only tensile loading is on the swivel at the top and the drum at the bottom and there is none on the foil.

The furlers do not need replacement however I would replace the bearings and wiper seals whilst you had them down to replace the stay wires.
The issue seems to be (diagram below smaller size but same model)

https://www.fawcettboat.com/images/Harken-mk2-2-pl.pdf

HFG-119
HFG-718
883

Basically it's the custom turnbuckle part from harken that has the roller bearing race in it
I's brass with 2 stainless rods
They want to replace it' as it's under tension

I'm more skeptical
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Old 01-10-2020, 03:13   #11
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Re: Riggers want to replace my furlers!

They want to replace because while many and many furlers, wires, and all sorts of other kit safely outlast their expected service life (remember, the MFG has to leave pretty wide safety margins), they also see furlers every so often that while looking pretty good, suddenly split somewhere and rained ball bearings on deck. And oh--it happened to be blowing hard just then. And who would have thunk it? the sail was damaged beyond repair. I work in a shop where the guys service a lot of furlers. Why do they service them? well, because they've seen enough ones break that they know an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Your riggers also know that if you don't allow them to service, odds are something will break soon, and as nice as it is to be right, they don't want to see you back with all sorts of damage, and telling everyone that "you just got your boat back from the shop."

It's like having a car in which you never change the oil: why should you? The engine keeps on running. Get your money's worth out of that oil and don't change it until the engine tells you it's time.
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Old 01-10-2020, 03:21   #12
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Re: Riggers want to replace my furlers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nfbr View Post
The issue seems to be (diagram below smaller size but same model)

https://www.fawcettboat.com/images/Harken-mk2-2-pl.pdf

HFG-119
HFG-718
883

Basically it's the custom turnbuckle part from harken that has the roller bearing race in it
I's brass with 2 stainless rods
They want to replace it' as it's under tension

I'm more skeptical

https://discountmarinesource.com/sto...=103681&page=3


https://www.fisheriessupply.com/hark...-hfg119-hfg119
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Old 01-10-2020, 04:07   #13
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Re: Riggers want to replace my furlers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benz View Post
They want to replace because while many and many furlers, wires, and all sorts of other kit safely outlast their expected service life (remember, the MFG has to leave pretty wide safety margins), they also see furlers every so often that while looking pretty good, suddenly split somewhere and rained ball bearings on deck. And oh--it happened to be blowing hard just then. And who would have thunk it? the sail was damaged beyond repair. I work in a shop where the guys service a lot of furlers. Why do they service them? well, because they've seen enough ones break that they know an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Your riggers also know that if you don't allow them to service, odds are something will break soon, and as nice as it is to be right, they don't want to see you back with all sorts of damage, and telling everyone that "you just got your boat back from the shop."

It's like having a car in which you never change the oil: why should you? The engine keeps on running. Get your money's worth out of that oil and don't change it until the engine tells you it's time.

I agree with Ben on this, it is like having a blowout on a tire, you never know when it will happen until it does!
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Old 01-10-2020, 04:47   #14
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Re: Riggers want to replace my furlers!

I would be looking hard to replace those parts. If I didn't find them I definitely would not be buying new furlers especially with a twin headstay setup like the one you have.

If I replaced something every time it started looking a bit shabby, or every time someone said I should, I'd never go cruising at all.

My two cents!
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Old 01-10-2020, 05:15   #15
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Re: Riggers want to replace my furlers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nfbr View Post
The issue seems to be (diagram below smaller size but same model)

https://www.fawcettboat.com/images/Harken-mk2-2-pl.pdf

HFG-119
HFG-718
883

Basically it's the custom turnbuckle part from harken that has the roller bearing race in it
I's brass with 2 stainless rods
They want to replace it' as it's under tension

I'm more skeptical
It's a couple of years ago now since I changed the wire but I'm fairly certain I would have made an assessment of the relative stress levels in any components under tensile stress.

For example if it's a 3/8" wire the cross sectional area is 0.1875^2 * Pi = 0.1104 square inches. Pulling 10,000 lbs on this wire will result in a stress of 10,000/0.1104 = 91,000 psi (It's probably going to break)

Assuming the stud which screws into the drum assembly is 5/8" diameter and the ball race has a minimum diameter of say 1 1/4" the area under stress is (0.625^2*3.1416) - (0.3125^2*3.1416) = 1.227-0.3067 = 0.9203 square inches. Therefor the same 10,000 lbs of load on this component generates a stress of only 10,900 psi or about 1/10th of the stress in the wire.

Rigging wire failures seldom occur in the body of the wire they tend to occur at the end fittings where the fitting grasps the wire because the stresses tend to concentrate at that point. Stainless steel is particularly prone to these failures because it's fatigue life is generally significantly shorter than carbon steel. This is the reason why it is considered prudent to regularly change out the rigging wire. However because the stress levels are significantly lower, as demonstrated above, many of the attached components have a much greater allowable working life than the wire.

Harken may be able to advise you of the stress levels and allowable working life of the subject components.
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