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Old 07-08-2015, 16:52   #1
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Inner fore stay/Solent stay location

I am in the early planning stages of adding a removeable inner forestay/Solent stay to my Bristol 35.5. Primary thought is storm sail use. Single spreader rig with fore and aft lowers. Anchor well starts short distance aft the headstay fitting, making a real Solent stay challenging. There is a pad eye aft of the well just forward of the bulkhead belowdecks which seems like a good place to fix the stay at deck level. It will need to be reinforced.

I am considering my options for locating the upper end on the mast. Please see diagram with color coding
1) purple, just below masthead, no running back stays required, but pretty vertically oriented stay makes sheeting to Genoa track a bit funny with a typically shaped sail and the upper mast is already fairly busy with furler, spin halyard, etc.
2) orange, mid upper mast parallel to headstay, seems best compromise,as the sheeting angles are normal and there is a big patch of empty real estate but requires running backs.
3)blue, at the spreaders, maybe even better sheeting angle, but luff is shorter and the angle of the aft lowers is likely insufficient aft support, plus this is another busy area with spin pole track, pole lift, steaming/foredeck lights.

I am inclined for #2 (Orange), but would be interested in others' thoughts.
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Old 07-08-2015, 16:55   #2
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Re: Inner fore stay/Solent stay location

Here is my storm jib, 84 sq feet, which is 3.8% of I squared.
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Old 07-08-2015, 17:00   #3
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Re: Inner fore stay/Solent stay location

How about a bow sprit instead?
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Old 07-08-2015, 17:50   #4
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Re: Inner fore stay/Solent stay location

My 2 cents for the Orange, blue could be a babystay due angle and lenght, and purple is a no no for me , i hate solents rigs but just me, in any case to fly a stormjib the best winner is the orange, as you say, running backs...
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Old 07-08-2015, 18:31   #5
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Re: Inner fore stay/Solent stay location

If the sail you want is short enough to fit on the blue stay (as your picture indicates) . . . That seems like the easiest most bullet proof solution. I presume you have thought thru halyard exit and sheaves?

If you want to be able to hoist a longer luff sail than will fit on that stay . . . The trade-offs between yellow and purple are about equal. Both work.
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Old 07-08-2015, 20:56   #6
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Re: Inner fore stay/Solent stay location

It's always a tradeoff. Big issue I see with your sail is the foot length and clearance with the forward lower. Sheeting that kind of sail is always a tricky one to get right without the sheet or clew chafing on something.

If it was me I would be tempted to go with a solent stay led to a point just behind the roller. This is a pretty useful thing to have for running wing and wing, light sails, and with some sort of 100% jib for heavy windward work, as well as being able to be used with a storm jib.

I don't like the orange option much, even though it seems to work it really needs runners, and I can't say I like the way that panel of mast has poor lateral support. If the section is a big chunky one it seems to work fine, but I would rather not worry about it in storm jib weather.

Ideally for just the storm jib, I would use the spreader mount, or pretty close to it maybe 6% of the panel length above them max. Then I would look at having the luff of the storm jib trimmed to reduce the foot length so that it cleared the forward lower shroud completely. Or the stay could be attached further forward on deck to give the sail clearance.

This is the configuration I used on Snow Petrel1, together with some spectra runners for insurance, and a tight luff.

Just beware that with a heavily reefed main and a storm jib set up like this the loads on the lowers are pretty high, much higher than they would normally be loaded with a genoa, when the caps take much of the strain. On some rigs A solent stay is probably a much safer bet, distributing the load in a better way.

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It's a very small sail, but it really provided a lot of extra drive, and wasn't in the way at all, the genoa could tack around it easily enough. Very useful offshore, but inshore I removed all the gear and used the solent stay instead. Offshore I had two storm jibs. One for the solent and one for the babystay. Never had to use them both, but it would have made a very snug rig.
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Waiting for wind at 60 degrees south. Shows the proportions well. Ideally I would have raised the Babystay about 500mm (1.5 feet) or so up the mast, and got a bigger storm jib. I would have used a wishbone boom to keep it flat and make it self tacking. But i've sold her now... New Project!
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The Solent stay running with my light drifter to leeward, sheeted off the main boom. this was a very good downwind rig. Fast, stable and easily handled as the wind increased. So good in light stuff I didn't need to pull out the spinnaker once at sea.

The biggest issue with running a storm jib of the solent stay is that it can't be used at the same time as the genoa, and it's more prone to luff sag, and wobbling. Balance may be better, or worse, depending on the boat. certainly for downwind it's better on a solent stay, further forward. Upwind it depends. probably better further aft, but I've gone to windward with just a storm jib on the outer forestay, no main. and it worked as long as the wind was strong enough to keep the lee rail under! I wouldn't have been able to tack though, or at least I didn't bother to try...
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Old 07-08-2015, 22:52   #7
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Re: Inner fore stay/Solent stay location

Snowpetrel those are some Really good thoughts, thanks for sharing them.

As to where & how to mount a tack fitting for your stay, it sounds like you pretty much have the essential ideas down. But keep in mind too, that you can always run a U-bolt through the stem (inside of the boat), & run a up to a fitting on the underside of the deck. With it's counterpart bolted to same on deck.

Also, there's a couple of pages of discussion on Removable Solent & Staysail stays here http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ay-127556.html
Including info on how it's possible to have one stay which does double duty for both.

Keep in mind, when you're sketching your heavy weather jibs, that you want the tack to be several feet above the deck, so that the sail doesn't catch, & get shredded by boarding waves.

And also, pay some attention to the CE of your heavy weather sailplan, especially as it relates to your underwater profile (CLR), & what it takes to keep your boat balanced, so that you have decent manuverability even when it's one of those days, when, like Dorothy in "The Wizard of Oz", you want to close your eyes & say "There's no place like home" (thrice).
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Old 08-08-2015, 03:25   #8
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Re: Inner fore stay/Solent stay location

Thanks for the thoughts.
I have both a 150 furling genoa as well as a 110 furling jib with a foam luff. My thinking is that swapping a furling sail in lighter winds is not so troublesome, then I can reef the working jib down a bit as needed as wind increases.
Deck attachment midway between stemhead and point shown is no-go due to anchor well. It also puts me further forward on the bow while setting up, although there are better handholds there. As the CE of the main moves forward as it reefs, a further aft location of the storm jib balances better. I do not have a trysail and plan a third reef.
I have a wire luff drifter that I could set free flying off the spin halyard to stemhead as a downwind twin as luff tension is not so critical or use a spinnaker.
I will check clearance of the clew on the lowers; it may not interfere as it comes out to the rail.
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Old 08-08-2015, 15:29   #9
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Re: Inner fore stay/Solent stay location

Here is the storm jib hoisted to spreaders on the spinnaker pole topping lift. It does hit the shrouds but has a good lead, even with a 2 foot tack pennant
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Old 08-08-2015, 19:21   #10
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Re: Inner fore stay/Solent stay location

^^ that looks pretty good.

Others will disagree, but I don't think the tack needs to be that far off the deck. Half that pennant would be more than satisfactory - lower the CE and still allow waves to break under it.
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Old 10-08-2015, 17:21   #11
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Re: Inner fore stay/Solent stay location

I recently added a solent stay to my Endeavour 32 and love it. The afternoon westerlies in my area are often 20-30 knots and I found that my 150% roller furling genoa without foam luff was getting stretched out and too full even when furled in to 100%. I installed the solent stay 2 foot down from the mast head without running backs to clear the roller furling and installed a tack fitting 12 inches behind the headstay which is as far back as I could go without being into my anchor well. It is connected to a custom made fitting bolted to the stem of the boat which connects to the custom tack fitting with a stainless turnbuckle. The new stay is tensioned with a 1/2inch diameter used stainless turnbuckle which I added a folding lever for less than $50. I cut 4 feet off the bottom and added hanks onto my working jib to give me about a 95% headsail 200-220 square foot. The last two times out have been a steady 25-30 knots of wind and with a double reefed main the sail sailed perfectly close hauled with not excessive heeling or weather helm. I wish that I could have mounted the tack fitting 4-6 inches further aft to give more room between the solent luff and the furled genoa as it sags a little as I tension the new stay. My halyards are all external to the mast and the only problem is the wire eye of the main halyard hangs up on the solent halyard block below the masthead which I will remedy by changing to an all rope main halyard. I chose the locations based on sailing conditions which occur regularly and not for storm conditions which I usually am not caught in. good luck.
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Old 10-08-2015, 21:23   #12
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Re: Inner fore stay/Solent stay location

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenL View Post
I recently added a solent stay to my Endeavour 32 and love it. The afternoon westerlies in my area are often 20-30 knots and I found that my 150% roller furling genoa without foam luff was getting stretched out and too full even when furled in to 100%. I installed the solent stay 2 foot down from the mast head without running backs to clear the roller furling and installed a tack fitting 12 inches behind the headstay which is as far back as I could go without being into my anchor well. It is connected to a custom made fitting bolted to the stem of the boat which connects to the custom tack fitting with a stainless turnbuckle. The new stay is tensioned with a 1/2inch diameter used stainless turnbuckle which I added a folding lever for less than $50. I cut 4 feet off the bottom and added hanks onto my working jib to give me about a 95% headsail 200-220 square foot. The last two times out have been a steady 25-30 knots of wind and with a double reefed main the sail sailed perfectly close hauled with not excessive heeling or weather helm. I wish that I could have mounted the tack fitting 4-6 inches further aft to give more room between the solent luff and the furled genoa as it sags a little as I tension the new stay. My halyards are all external to the mast and the only problem is the wire eye of the main halyard hangs up on the solent halyard block below the masthead which I will remedy by changing to an all rope main halyard. I chose the locations based on sailing conditions which occur regularly and not for storm conditions which I usually am not caught in. good luck.
If you need tips on Solent Stays, Brion (Toss) & Co. (in PT) are big fans of such setups.

My thinking on them is this;
~ 135% on the furler, as past about 30% rolled a sail loses too much shape
80% +/- in a Solent
~ Less, to Much Less for storm canvas. And if you like the Solent Stay's Tack can be moved aft to a Staysail position.
~ Big hank on's, on the Solent for truly light stuff - Upwind or Down
~ Kite's for Spankin' It in the light stuff, especially AWA >70 degrees
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Old 09-05-2021, 06:08   #13
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Re: Inner fore stay/Solent stay location

I recently added a Solent stay to my NZ designed Cavalier 32 (10m) masthead rigged sloop with single spreader, cap shrouds and fore and aft lowers.
I already had a removable (at the deck end) storm jib stay which connects to the mast just above the spreaders. I use the spin pole topping lift as the halyard. This is for a very small true storm jib which does not overlap the forward lowers. I’ve had it up in 45+kts with the storm trysail (only 2 reefs in small 70’s style main).
I have 150% and 135% genoas for the roller furler on the forestay, but I absolutely refuse to use either of them “reefed” when on the wind. Besides the terrible shape, this is a sail killer even with foam luffs, which I don’t have. On the wind, the 135% genoa is good with full main to about 20kts. Cav 32’s are very stiff boats! In my sailing area, New Zealand, 20+ kts is not uncommon.
My boat came with a hardly used #3 jib with a short luff with clew just forward of the fore lowers. This sail had luff tape for the furler.
I don’t know about you, but doing a short-handed jib change in 20+knots with taped sails in any kind of seaway on a 10m boat is NOT fun.
To cover the 20-35kts wind range, I added a removable Solent stay and changed the #3 jib to hanks. My rigger said that to avoid running backs, if the mast section is fairly robust, the Solent tang can be 6% of the mast length below the masthead. In my case that worked out to 660mm. I have deck opening locker for the anchor chain, and the deck tang for the storm jib is located just aft of that. Its about 1m behind the forestay stem attachment and heavily attached to a full bulkhead. I use that tang for both the storm jib stay and the Solent stay. Both stays live normally wound around the forward lowers, and when deployed, attach to the deck tang with a turnbuckle.The Solent stay is not parallel to the forestay, but that doesn’t really matter. There was already a spare jib halyard so I’ve used that, with a slight modification, for the Solent jib. The clew of the sail is just aft of the foreward lower and sheets between it and the cap shroud. When reaching, I re-lead the sheet outside the cap shroud.
I’m totally happy with this rig. The boat sails perfectly balanced with 1 reef in the main up to 30kts. Between 30 and 40kts that I’d probably either throw in a 2nd reef or go to storm jib + storm trysail depending on the sea state.
The main thing for me is not doing jib changes on the furler in shitty weather. I’ve raced heaps on big full-race boats with foils on the forestay, and yes, with a full 6-8 person crew its not a big deal to do a sail change on the wind with a twin groove foil. On my 12m “Joshua“ cutter ketch with big flush deck, we did 2-handed furler-jib changes offshore with plenty of sea room, but we did them going downwind and had the flush deck to deal with the sail after it came out of the furler.
My good friends, Tom and Vicky Jackson of 39 ft. S&S sloop “Sunstone”, who have 200,000 crusing and racing miles and were awarded the CCA Blue Water Medal a few years ago, have used a Solent stay for years and swear by it.
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Old 15-10-2021, 12:24   #14
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Re: Inner fore stay/Solent stay location

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Originally Posted by nuku34 View Post
I recently added a Solent stay to my NZ designed Cavalier 32 (10m) masthead rigged sloop with single spreader, cap shrouds and fore and aft lowers.
I already had a removable (at the deck end) storm jib stay which connects to the mast just above the spreaders. I use the spin pole topping lift as the halyard. This is for a very small true storm jib which does not overlap the forward lowers. Iíve had it up in 45+kts with the storm trysail (only 2 reefs in small 70ís style main).
I have 150% and 135% genoas for the roller furler on the forestay, but I absolutely refuse to use either of them ďreefedĒ when on the wind. Besides the terrible shape, this is a sail killer even with foam luffs, which I donít have. On the wind, the 135% genoa is good with full main to about 20kts. Cav 32ís are very stiff boats! In my sailing area, New Zealand, 20+ kts is not uncommon.
My boat came with a hardly used #3 jib with a short luff with clew just forward of the fore lowers. This sail had luff tape for the furler.
I donít know about you, but doing a short-handed jib change in 20+knots with taped sails in any kind of seaway on a 10m boat is NOT fun.
To cover the 20-35kts wind range, I added a removable Solent stay and changed the #3 jib to hanks. My rigger said that to avoid running backs, if the mast section is fairly robust, the Solent tang can be 6% of the mast length below the masthead. In my case that worked out to 660mm. I have deck opening locker for the anchor chain, and the deck tang for the storm jib is located just aft of that. Its about 1m behind the forestay stem attachment and heavily attached to a full bulkhead. I use that tang for both the storm jib stay and the Solent stay. Both stays live normally wound around the forward lowers, and when deployed, attach to the deck tang with a turnbuckle.The Solent stay is not parallel to the forestay, but that doesnít really matter. There was already a spare jib halyard so Iíve used that, with a slight modification, for the Solent jib. The clew of the sail is just aft of the foreward lower and sheets between it and the cap shroud. When reaching, I re-lead the sheet outside the cap shroud.
Iím totally happy with this rig. The boat sails perfectly balanced with 1 reef in the main up to 30kts. Between 30 and 40kts that Iíd probably either throw in a 2nd reef or go to storm jib + storm trysail depending on the sea state.
The main thing for me is not doing jib changes on the furler in shitty weather. Iíve raced heaps on big full-race boats with foils on the forestay, and yes, with a full 6-8 person crew its not a big deal to do a sail change on the wind with a twin groove foil. On my 12m ďJoshuaď cutter ketch with big flush deck, we did 2-handed furler-jib changes offshore with plenty of sea room, but we did them going downwind and had the flush deck to deal with the sail after it came out of the furler.
My good friends, Tom and Vicky Jackson of 39 ft. S&S sloop ďSunstoneĒ, who have 200,000 crusing and racing miles and were awarded the CCA Blue Water Medal a few years ago, have used a Solent stay for years and swear by it.
Hello, may I ask what kind of tang you used? Thanks
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Old 15-10-2021, 13:39   #15
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Re: Inner fore stay/Solent stay location

I did something similar on my boat. She ha running backs for mast stabilization and a deck attachment for a defunct solent. Just at the backs was a topping lift for the spinnaker boom. I added a removable baby stay just above the sheave for that line just below the second spreaders and just above the runners (30cm each way). I set this when going offshore. It stabilizes the mast and gives me a heavy weather option. Itís particularly good for heaving to. The Genoa easily tacks ahead of it.

The height is partly to do with letting waves go under. Partly due to sheeting angles and partly due to getting a slot between the deep reefed main to improve windward performance in a blow.
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