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raingolfer · 21-06-2023, 08:57

I have 2 ea Harken 56-2 electric primaries. We were using one to haul me up and down the rigging this morning. I was down on deck, ready to go back up and the winch no longer turns.

There are 2 control buttons, fast speed/slow speed. There is a click when you press either button, which I assume is the relay.

I've attached photos. There appears to be a fuse. I took a photo of the fuse for the other winch to see the label/specs.

Suggestions for how to proceed?

Spartanacus · 21-06-2023, 09:06

Find that relay that clicks and see if there is power there? If no power at both posts while it clicks, then you need a relay. Check fuse for continuity, probably not the problem since that relay is clicking. You could also swap components from the working side.

SailingHarmonie · 21-06-2023, 09:20

Going aloft on an electric winch is EXTRA dangerous. We have the absolute rule that if the winch is being is being powered up, the self-tailer is NEVER, EVER used. The line MUST ALWAYS be tailed manually. If that means having a third person attending, so much the better. Having the winch stuck ON with the line in the self tailer can be every bit as dangerous to all involved as falling.

For an absolutely horrific description of what can happen:
https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/th...ntigua.122374/

If the main control relay gets stuck ON (it DOES happen!) there are very, very few boats that have a way of stopping the winch from running away convenient to the cockpit.

raingolfer · 21-06-2023, 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

Going aloft on an electric winch is EXTRA dangerous. We have the absolute rule that if the winch is being is being powered up, the self-tailer is NEVER, EVER used. The line MUST ALWAYS be tailed manually. If that means having a third person attending, so much the better. Having the winch stuck ON with the line in the self tailer can be every bit as dangerous to all involved as falling.

For an absolutely horrific description of what can happen:
https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/th...ntigua.122374/

If the main control relay gets stuck ON (it DOES happen!) there are very, very few boats that have a way of stopping the winch from running away convenient to the cockpit.

thanks, that's great advice

raingolfer · 21-06-2023, 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartanacus

Find that relay that clicks and see if there is power there? If no power at both posts while it clicks, then you need a relay. Check fuse for continuity, probably not the problem since that relay is clicking. You could also swap components from the working side.

Voltage from battery to relay, and there's voltage from relay to motor on both posts at the motor (same as the working motor/winch) when pressing the control buttons.

I don't understand, however, why there is voltage on both #1 and #2 at the motor regardless of which speed is selected? What tells the motor which direction to turn? (I'm not knowledgeable on this stuff.)

Fuse has continuity.

Below is the wiring schematic.

Spartanacus · 21-06-2023, 10:38

Good of you to include schematic. Are you saying that this winch is powered in both directions or has two powered speeds in one direction cuz I don't see the wiring for a reverse?
Looking at schematic, A1 and A2 are the two speeds. If you have power on both at same time then that relay is welded closed and needs replacement. I'll wait for you to verify before pressing on.

SailingHarmonie · 21-06-2023, 10:54

Never mind... you are ahead of me already...

And check the main breaker. The little breaker you have pictured is for the COIL side of the relay. If you hear it clicking, that side is fine, as are the switches. If you can hear it click, it is very unlikely that the relay has failed in such a way that neither speed works. Almost surely there is nothing getting to the power terminals on the relay, or the motor itself has an issue.

raingolfer · 21-06-2023, 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartanacus

Good of you to include schematic. Are you saying that this winch is powered in both directions or has two powered speeds in one direction cuz I don't see the wiring for a reverse?
Looking at schematic, A1 and A2 are the two speeds. If you have power on both at same time then that relay is welded closed and needs replacement. I'll wait for you to verify before pressing on.

It's a 2 speed in same direction. That was confusing when I said which direction to turn...should have said which SPEED to turn.

What's confusing to me, is the working winch has power at the motor to both terminals (1, 1) regardless of which A1 or A2 button I press. Ditto for the non-working winch motor.

One other piece of info:
When I first discovered the non-working winch, I was unable to insert a winch handle (push the rod down), to test if the winch would turn. I could sort of get the handle in, and it would only turn slow speed, I couldn't turn the handle in the other direction (like it was locked).
I loosened the screw and removed the rod, and put back together, and now it will manually turn both speeds. However, not with the motor.

If you have other suggestions, I'm open.

I'm thinking I will try swapping relays...but it's 'boat yoga' to get to the thing, and I have to empty the cockpit locker to get to it...

raingolfer · 21-06-2023, 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

Never mind... you are ahead of me already...

And check the main breaker. The little breaker you have pictured is for the COIL side of the relay. If you hear it clicking, that side is fine, as are the switches. If you can hear it click, it is very unlikely that the relay has failed in such a way that neither speed works. Almost surely there is nothing getting to the power terminals on the relay, or the motor itself has an issue.

Thanks, I'm beginning to suspect the motor...Any way to test?

Spartanacus · 21-06-2023, 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by raingolfer

It's a 2 speed in same direction. That was confusing when I said which direction to turn...should have said which SPEED to turn.

What's confusing to me, is the working winch has power at the motor to both terminals (1, 1) regardless of which A1 or A2 button I press. Ditto for the non-working winch motor.

One other piece of info:
When I first discovered the non-working winch, I was unable to insert a winch handle (push the rod down), to test if the winch would turn. I could sort of get the handle in, and it would only turn slow speed, I couldn't turn the handle in the other direction (like it was locked).
I loosened the screw and removed the rod, and put back together, and now it will manually turn both speeds. However, not with the motor.

If you have other suggestions, I'm open.

I'm thinking I will try swapping relays...but it's 'boat yoga' to get to the thing, and I have to empty the cockpit locker to get to it...

OK so knowing this we have power at motor and then of course to both sides
of relay. The switches then are your lead to ground. Get to the switches and put a test light on them as you press each one. Should be a break and then continuity when pushed, if all is well. Look for brown wires 1 and 2.

A raw motor test is to bypass all the relays and switches using a heavy wire to the motor.
In your case we are leaving the hot side as it is (remove one hot side at a time directly on motor for test) and using this heavy wire to ground the motor. Attach the heavy wire to (-) neg on battery and then touch the other end against the motor casing.

raingolfer · 21-06-2023, 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartanacus

OK so knowing this we have power at motor and then of course to both sides
of relay. The switches then are your lead to ground. Get to the switches and put a test light on them as you press each one. Should be a break and then continuity when pushed, if all is well. Look for brown wires 1 and 2.

A raw motor test is to bypass all the relays and switches using a heavy wire to the motor.
In your case we are leaving the hot side as it is (remove one hot side at a time directly on motor for test) and using this heavy wire to ground the motor. Attach the heavy wire to (-) neg on battery and then touch the other end against the motor casing.

UPDATE:

Using the old "hit the starter motor" trick, when I 'tap' on the motor housing and press a button, the motor runs/winch turns. Works for both speeds. However, when the motor stops, it won't run again without a tap on the motor case. And, at the high speed, sometimes the motor sounds like it's laboring.

I'll disconnect power and clean all 3 terminals on the motor, to be sure I don't have that as an issue.

I'll also figure out how to run the test you suggest.

Spartanacus · 21-06-2023, 12:33

Ah, the old whack it with a hammer trick. Forget the test now.
Brushes (probably) or bearings (less so) are on the way out. Can these be rebuilt, probably worth a search, betting they are pricey?

donradcliffe · 21-06-2023, 12:34

If a tap gets it going, that sounds like brushes. I would also check for any voltage between the motor ground terminal and the battery ground.

raingolfer · 21-06-2023, 13:32

I'm going to attempt to take the motor off. Do you think I can do it by removing the circled nuts?
Hoping there aren't going to be bits an pieces falling out...