Electric propulsion in the future

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by pt49

It is significant that Mercedes Benz concedes that Tesla is the car maker to try and catch up to when it comes to EV's.



Tesla is 10 years ahead of the rest of the market technology wise... and in 10 years time, Tesla will still be AT LEAST 10 years ahead of GM, Ford, Volkswagon and Mercedes etc.

Ummmm I believe that Lucid is ahead of Tesla in technology with over 600 miles on. Single charge

[NotEntirelySure]

I'm a little surprised by some of the comments in this thread. Surely part of the joy of sailing and the cruising lifestyle is simplicity.

Is there anything simpler than a small diesel and a tank of fuel.

Compared with the complexity of an electric system with all those batteries spread everywhere throughout the boat and the charging electronics....

As someone who has spent most of my life repairing electronic thingys I know only too well how unreliable electronics is and it only gets a lot worse when you put it near salt water.

I like my diesel for its reliability and simplicity and wont be changing anytime soon. I'm a bit too attached to the idea of when I really need some aux power its ready to go and once started is highly unlikely to quit.

I also am quite attached to the space in my boat my tiny fuel tank doesn't fill.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by NotEntirelySure

I'm a little surprised by some of the comments in this thread. Surely part of the joy of sailing and the cruising lifestyle is simplicity.

Is there anything simpler than a small diesel and a tank of fuel.

Compared with the complexity of an electric system with all those batteries spread everywhere throughout the boat and the charging electronics....

As someone who has spent most of my life repairing electronic thingys I know only too well how unreliable electronics is and it only gets a lot worse when you put it near salt water.

I like my diesel for its reliability and simplicity and wont be changing anytime soon. I'm a bit too attached to the idea of when I really need some aux power its ready to go and once started is highly unlikely to quit.

I also am quite attached to the space in my boat my tiny fuel tank doesn't fill.

ICE vs EP is an apples to oranges comparison.
You want to keep your diesel, go ahead.
A lot of us see changes coming and want to tinker with and help in its development.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Statistical

The least confrontational way is to simply ban the sale of new internal combustion vehicles and let time take care of the rest. In 20 years there will be almost no internal combustion vehicles left. Rising taxes on fuel for the tiny percentage of the population using it along with closing gas stations will help accelerate the tail end.



When <1% of the vehicles on the road are internal combustion 20 or so years after you ban the sale of new vehicles well you can decide what you want to do next but you have already gained >99% of the benefit.



Now at this point that is a hell of a lot more viable for personal light duty ground vehicles than it is for other classes of vehicles (i.e. boats).

That’s what been done by many governments

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Shaneesprit

The EV chargers have 2 cables but can only charge one car at a time, so if someone is trying to do a full charge but you just need to do a pit stop you plug in, and the charger ignores your car until the other is at 100%

The way around this is to hit the stop 🛑 button disconnecting the other car before connecting yours, reset the charger and then plug the other car back in so it ignores the other car and charges yours Although would you do this to if the owner is sat in his / her car.

That’s is regarded in the EV community as extremely hostile, selfish and rude.

[NPCampbell]

Originally Posted by GordMay

You’re confused about biogenic sources of greenhouse gases - the contribution of humans to global warming.

Relax, Mara. I have good news:
Your bodily emissions have, at most, a negligible impact on climate change, and you're probably even be a modest carbon-sequestration device.

The amount of carbon that a human breathes out, is exactly equal to the amount of carbon he/she takes in, minus the amount of carbon that contributes to the person's body mass. This means that the human body [like all animals] is a very modest carbon-sequestration device.

Human beings do exhale almost three billion tons of carbon dioxide annually, but the carbon we exhale is the same carbon that was “inhaled” from the atmosphere by the plants we consume. [when we eat meat, we're still eating the same carbon, except that it passes through livestock on its way into our mouths and out into the atmosphere] Our bodies convert carbohydrates, from CO2-absorbing plants, into energy, plus water, and CO2. As such, we’re not adding any extra CO2.

The only way to add to the carbon, in the atmosphere, is to take it from a sequestered source like fossil fuels [where it has been safe from the atmosphere, for millions of years] and combust it.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...u-breathe.html

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Statistical

The least confrontational way is to simply ban the sale of new internal combustion vehicles and let time take care of the rest. In 20 years there will be almost no internal combustion vehicles left. Rising taxes on fuel for the tiny percentage of the population using it along with closing gas stations will help accelerate the tail end.

When <1% of the vehicles on the road are internal combustion 20 or so years after you ban the sale of new vehicles well you can decide what you want to do next but you have already gained >99% of the benefit.

Now at this point that is a hell of a lot more viable for personal light duty ground vehicles than it is for other classes of vehicles (i.e. boats).

That's actually the definition of "most confrontational" way.

And the problem with this approach is the political aspect as you give a rallying point for those who don't want to give up ICE...and a lot of moderate people will be scared by how confrontational it is and join them. This could result in laws, taxes and regulations that do the exact opposite undermining EV adoption.

If you want the govt to choose the winners and losers in technology, far better to tilt the board by issuing tax breaks and subsidies for the favored technology and increased taxes and regulatory hurdles for the non-favored technology.

As you gradually ramp them up, people will shift to the govt chosen winner...then as you say, the support infrastructure for the govt chosen loser, will dry up forcing the remainder out (sort of by choice...they will grumble but by the time they get serious it will be too late).

But I think you are jumping the gun on viability. For 30-70% of light duty vehicles, it could be argued as viable. Multi-car families, can typically get away with a single ICE and the cars used primarily for commuting could be converted over to EV. Beyond that, you really need a definition of viable and that's a sliding scale and it's judged against modern ICE capabilities. You are going to have to retrain the public that they must accept lower capability.

A big question is what happens when EVs become more than a tiny fraction of the market. We may simply wind up replacing OPEC with OLEC (Organization of Lithium Exporting Countries). At the same time any successful conversion will make petroleum products cheaper. You can expect countries to take advantage of the cost differential buying up cheap oil to fuel their economies.

[pt49]

A little logic tells me that there is NO WAY we can go from full fossil to full EV in a short time period.

Some fool posted above that we ban fossil fuels outright... yeah right.

NOT GUNNA HAPPEN...

OK... how about they try taxing fossil fuelled vehicles out of existence... NOT GUNNA HAPPEN, because the economy will CRASH.

EV's will replace ICE vehicles in time... but not all ICE vehicles...

I'd like to see a EV Cat D11 working 150 miles from the nearest power charger... or any sort of tractor or farm equipment, for that matter.

NOT GUNNA HAPPEN.

Drag lines on mine sites may operate on electricity, BUT not on batteries. They must be connected to a permanent power source, and that is not going to change for a long time.

Any equipment operating remotely MUST rely on diesel, even if it's an EV... because the electricity in remote areas in almost all cases is from diesel generation.

[pt49]

We had a cyclone hit Darwin (Australia) 2 or 3 years ago and it knocked out the power grid for a minimum of 4 days and up to 14 days in some area's within 25kms of the city.

Good luck with an EV in a cyclone (hurricane, typhoon) prone area.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by pt49

A little logic tells me that there is NO WAY we can go from full fossil to full EV in a short time period ...

I see less than a little logic, and more logical fallacies*, in your unsubstantiated statements.
* Including: false dilemma, red herring, straw man, and circular arguments; many based upon outcome & cost bias.

You may be a little like the drunk: You can tell him, a mile away; but when he gets up close, you can't tell him anything.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by NotEntirelySure

I'm a little surprised by some of the comments in this thread. Surely part of the joy of sailing and the cruising lifestyle is simplicity.

Is there anything simpler than a small diesel and a tank of fuel.

Compared with the complexity of an electric system with all those batteries spread everywhere throughout the boat and the charging electronics....

As someone who has spent most of my life repairing electronic thingys I know only too well how unreliable electronics is and it only gets a lot worse when you put it near salt water.

I like my diesel for its reliability and simplicity and wont be changing anytime soon. I'm a bit too attached to the idea of when I really need some aux power its ready to go and once started is highly unlikely to quit.

I also am quite attached to the space in my boat my tiny fuel tank doesn't fill.

Not to quarrel with your perspective but here is my circumstance. The batteries and the engine fit completely in the space under the companionway allocated to the diesel on my boat. As for reliability and simplicity, I have done nothing but change the gear oil and charge the batteries in 3 years of ownership. Putting her to bed for the winter could not be easier, nothing to do. The batteries even stay in the boat over the winter.

I am not here to say electric is the perfect solution but it sure is great for my use case.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by pt49

A little logic tells me that there is NO WAY we can go from full fossil to full EV in a short time period.



Some fool posted above that we ban fossil fuels outright... yeah right.



NOT GUNNA HAPPEN...



OK... how about they try taxing fossil fuelled vehicles out of existence... NOT GUNNA HAPPEN, because the economy will CRASH.



EV's will replace ICE vehicles in time... but not all ICE vehicles...



I'd like to see a EV Cat D11 working 150 miles from the nearest power charger... or any sort of tractor or farm equipment, for that matter.



NOT GUNNA HAPPEN.



Drag lines on mine sites may operate on electricity, BUT not on batteries. They must be connected to a permanent power source, and that is not going to change for a long time.



Any equipment operating remotely MUST rely on diesel, even if it's an EV... because the electricity in remote areas in almost all cases is from diesel generation.

No one is suggesting all forms of ICE are going to disappear over night.

Effective diesel electric locomotives appeared before WW2 the last steam engine were working in the late seventies.

But it is policy by many countries and the EU to limit ICE private transport from using ICE by banning the sale of new cars by 2030 or 2035. Most European car manufacturers are fully committed to a phase out of all ICE private car production by 2030.

Tax hikes and Carbon taxes will do the rest . Your new ICE car today is likely to be your last.

Large industrial vehicles will take much longer.

[Shaneesprit]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

That’s is regarded in the EV community as extremely hostile, selfish and rude.

That’s exactly the reason he is going back to ICE, as it’s too confrontational.

I am very pro EV in our cities - actually believe in some park and ride schemes and banning ICE, even though that means I will be banned from driving in the city.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Shaneesprit

That’s exactly the reason he is going back to ICE, as it’s too confrontational.



I am very pro EV in our cities - actually believe in some park and ride schemes and banning ICE, even though that means I will be banned from driving in the city.

Evs actually make more sense for longer trips.

[Shaneesprit]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Evs actually make more sense for longer trips.

What’s you’re thinking behind this?

For me the real world driving distance needs to be 300 Miles probably with the heater on, and yes some cars probably can achieve this, but I am interested in end of life mileage not new. So my issue would be needing to cover 250miles without worrying if the car can get home without stopping, don’t suggest a coffee stop either. Monday morning runs on tight deadlines, and I don’t have the money to invest in an EV despite being considered a high earner.
I would happily go by train unfortunately the train would be about 5 hours too late at present - I have pointed this out to the local government minister, but I am not hopeful of the trains starting work early enough.

PS still waiting for someone to give me a Spec I can work with for EV of my 25ft CAT likewise someone also suggested smaller boats could go EV while I disagree and think larger boats could and smaller boats cannot - and I have watched sailing uma I was surprised how much they agree with me / I agree with them, on the EV not really being viable for most at present.