Nilaya / Berserk Missing

[Andrew Troup]

re Chilean Patagonia

Originally Posted by Landkrabbe

....Well you're in luck because that's where he's going after leaving the Ross Sea, according to himself: He's going to South America.....

Hmm ... not high on the list of sensible places to go when you didn't comply with clearance at your last departure (of course Antarctica does not count) ...

Fun to be a fly on the wall when he's explaining *that* to the capitán del puerto on attempting to clear in.

And even were Chile not the uber-nanny-state for mariners, a place where compliance is onerous and costly even for the most conscientious (and next to impossible for sailing vessels), and retribution for non-compliance takes the 'love' out of tough love...
his protestations of self reliance might fall on somewhat deaf ears.

They may become aware, given his unquenchable thirst for notoriety, that he castigated the NZ government for pinching pennies, after the massively expensive search effort ended*, because they were not prepared to incur the further expense of satellite image-based search, for a vessel which was no longer emitting an EPIRB signal. Why he would not himself raise a loan for this was not discussed.

He makes no secret of considering that the authorities owe him an infinite duty of care, in return for which he offers precisely nothing by way of compliance or cooperation.
In fact he treats them as a cat treats a scratching post.... which I suppose appeals to those whose tastes run to daytime TV.

It might appeal less to the people of NZ who DID reach deep into their pockets for a fruitless search, despite there being no obligation whatsoever south of 60deg.

----

If I were an ancient I'd be spinning my burial site into a froth.

Complaining of "not being welcome" seems unbecoming of a Viking Berserker. His forebears were not noted for entertaining such sentiments. Nor for making themselves welcome - about the only characteristic they share with him - but at least the combination showed some integrity.

*(apart from damage to a brand new warship operating well outside parameters, helicopter fuel might as well be single malt whisky, it's so scarce, and represents such cost, down yonder. Unfortunately, helicopters do not display good breeding and sip it as if it were...)

[ice]

Originally Posted by callmecrazy

I'm not an expert, but I don't think Chile cares about Andhoy and crew.

In Chilean waters, you need a stamped and signed zarpe to move from one port to the next, which lists all your intended anchorages (and you can only list the 'approved' ones). They are pretty fussy about paperwork and fees. As you sail, you have to check in by vhf with every lighthouse and every naval vessel you pass. And you are suppose to check in with your location every day by ssb or e-mail. They have been known to send gunboats to inspect and/or tow cruising boats out of channels and anchorages that were not approved. It's not exactly the most comfortable place for a 'free spirit' or anti-authoritarian.

They are quite good about being flexible when safety is at stake. But they are quite inflexible when they think you just don't want to follow the rules.

It's a place where when one cruiser misbehaves, the Armada cracks down on all the cruisers. They have a number of potentially quite expensive rules which are at the port captain's discretion (particularly with respect to requiring insurance, safety equipment and pilots). So we can all only hope that Jarle puts on his best behavior, because if he acts up it will backfire on all the rest of the cruisers there who trying to have simple adventures.

[Landkrabbe]

Andhøy called his lawyer this morning; the search is over. He is now going to go through the ice belt and leave Antarctica. South America is the previously stated intended destination, but he hasn't told his lawyer exactly where they'll be going, so I guess neither the Falkland Islands or South Africa would be out of the question.

Andhøy has lots of stuff to say to the press, which he's related to his lawyer, but he'll wait to make it public until he's back in Norway. Start making tin foil viking helmets. (Real viking helmets don't have horns, by the way.)

[Doodles]

Maybe when he gets back Baldwin will interview him. Jarle seems like he belongs on this list:

Atom Voyages - Sailor Interviews

But maybe not since he probably hasn't broken as many laws/regulations as Kris Larsen or Hans Klaar.

[ice]

Originally Posted by Doodles

Maybe when he gets back Baldwin will interview him. Jarle seems like he belongs on this list:

Those Atom interviews are interesting and useful for this discussion. There are certainly some anti-authoritarians there who break regulations. As mentioned in one of those interviews, some sailors feel these people interviewed are 'not leaving a clean wake, and are hurting other cruisers by their actions'. While other sailors feel the people interviewed are mavericks and free spirits and doing no harm.

There is an honest difference of opinion there. But let me explain why Jarle is fundamentally different than any of those interviewed and fundamentally doing more harm. There are four areas.

First, those interviewed are generally leading quiet self-contained lives - finding their own freedom and peace while making as few waves as possible. Jarle on the other hand is intentionally seeking out media exposure. He is intentionally trumpeting his actions, as a role model to impressionable new sailors (and others), and to the authorities who's rules he is breaking. Unfortunately the role model he is setting out is negative. A good captain and expedition leader takes responsibility - the buck stops with him and displays good and careful planning. Those are excellent values for a role model and mentor to display. Unfortunately Jarle is blaming everyone but himself. He is taking no responsibility for anything. And if you are going to be breaking rules and regulations, thumbing your nose in the media about it only puts the bureaucrats backs against a wall and they feel they must create new enforcement that blows back against everyone. If you break the rules privately and quietly, then the bureaucrats can be flexible and make individual allowances. So, one difference is that he seems to be seeking fame and money rather than freedom.

Second, the folks interviewed have demonstrated sound seamanship and decent planning with very limited resources. Jarle on the other hand has not demonstrated seamanship or good planning. He has now lost 2 boats, 3 crew, caused a difficult search and rescue effort and required a government air-evac. Those Atom interviewed have not required significant government efforts to be rescued. To be fair, the Berserk sinking was a stroke of terrible luck as that particular storm was unusual. But what was perfectly foreseeable was that he was down there too late in the season. If he had gotten to the pole he would have required medical attention (frostbite) and would have required either fuel to get back to the boat or a flight. Neither of the anchorages are safe all weather anchorages and by the time he would have gotten back from the pole they would have started freezing over and they would have been very dangerous with ice being blown into the boat. Wind driven ice is one of the few things that can easily crush a steel hull. Further, Jarle has now had three boats, with the current one being a 15m custom vessel. I don't know exactly where his money is comming from but he does not have the 'limited resources' personal value or excuse that the Atom folks have. So, a second difference, is that Jarle has not demonstrated great competence and has required government assistance, rather than being free and self-reliant.

Third, I think we can all agree that there is an acceptable line somewhere in rule and law breaking. I think we can all agree that driving a little over the speed limit is one one side of the line and robbing a bank to fund your sailing is on the other side. We can disagree about specifically where that line is. But the point here is that Jarle is rather further to the law breaking side than the Atom interviews. He has now twice been deported (Canada and New Zealand) because he has clearly and consciously broken immigration rules after being cautioned. Sneaking clearly banned individuals (hell's angles) across boarders is taken much much more seriously than say having some expired flares. Making clear serious lies on visa applications is taken rather more seriously than not having the proper SAR insurance. Not having the proper permits is one thing, and the authorities are relatively flexible about it, but spilling diesel near RO intake pipes and leaving rotting drums of diesel on the ice is another. So, we here can disagree about where the 'acceptable' line is, but the authorities, who can be quite flexible and helpful when they as individuals believe you are on the 'right side of the realistic line', clearly believe Jarle has stepped over it.

Fourth, the people Atom interviewed have mostly chosen to go to non-controversial places. Jarle unfortunately has picked as his playground an area that is right now in flux and deep controversy where the way forward is being debated right at the moment, and so his actions have a disproportionate impact on the future for other cruisers. This is a long and complex subject, but in short . . in Patagonia and on the Peninsula there has been a running battle with charter boats (which do not meet any of the Chilean or Argentine safety regulations nor pay any taxes). This has put the officials there in a bind, because they would like to encourage and support private cruisers, but they also want commercial operations to meet commercial safety regulations and taxes. Jarle's activities unfortunately fall right into that mess. Further, the tourism business has exploded on the peninsula, and the cruise ship operators are actively looking for ways to prevent yachts from going (to keep the anchorages less crowded) and Jales activities just gives them more ammunition. And finally there is the ongoing struggle by some countries to stake out their potential future claims to resources, and Jarles activities given them an excuse to argue for a great enforcement and regulator presence on the ice. So, the people Atom interview intentionally picked places to sail where they could fly under radar and there was no big controversy they could get caught in, while Jale has picked a place where the future is being decided as we speak and his actions will have an impact on that future, and it will NOT be a positive impact for the private cruising sailor.

[red_sky]

Originally Posted by Doodles

Maybe when he gets back Baldwin will interview him. Jarle seems like he belongs on this list:

Atom Voyages - Sailor Interviews

But maybe not since he probably hasn't broken as many laws/regulations as Kris Larsen or Hans Klaar.

Those are some great stories. Thanks for posting the link! I think Trevor Robertson's view might be notable for this thread, and perhaps others...

"I made a conscious decision not to take a satellite phone or SSB radio with me," Trevor said. "It's not that I didn't want to speak to other people. I just felt I had no right putting people in a situation where they would have to risk their lives to save me if anything went wrong."

[Andrew Troup]

I'll set aside the issues of competing freedoms. After what "ice" posted, it's hard to think how the case could be put more comprehensively, or comprehensibly.

If anyone remains unpersuaded, I guess I'll have to accept that some people choose to believe that Andhoey's undoubted audacity, reported charisma and purported virility entitle him – not just to his fair share of freedom that the rest of us have to make do with – but somehow to unlimited freedom, even at the expense of our own future freedoms.
So I'll deal instead with the behaviour he models for impressionable minds.

The interviews linked to by a recent poster were indeed helpful and clarifying:

It's *not* being outside the law which makes Andhoey's tactics offensive to me.
It's how he does it, and why he does it.

It's never been so clearly illustrated to me that – at least when it comes to adventure – those who seek glory the most, deserve it the least.

Some of the sailors I most like and admire are cut from the same cloth as Kris (Larson). I've known people who drilled and filled their own teeth, issued their own visas and renewed their own passports, using considerable guile and their full kit of calligraphic pens, scalpels, Indian ink and other traditional toys of forgery. They've revalidated or refilled their own gas bottles, rescued initially from dumpsters and carefully inspected with improvised or borrowed borescopes. They've refilled with diesel they've siphoned and repurified from rusting fuel drums at abandoned military bases and flouted the arcane regulations of neighbouring nations perpetually engaged in a form of ritual arm-wrestling using maritime regulations.
And when someone pulls them off a beach and incurs damage as a direct result, they stop and get a job and make things good before pursuing their liberty anew.

But in most cases, only their close and trusted friends know these things about them.
---

Having said that, the single thing which makes people like Kris so admirable, at least to me, is not the way they generally operate in happy obscurity, it's this:

They do not taunt the metaphorical tiger, they outwit it. And when on occasion the tiger catches them in the act, they take their consequences like an adult (eg "the struggle for her helm was settled finally for $35 in cash. Actually, I quite liked the young gendarme who boarded us. He certainly didn't lack guts. Fortunately ... he was prohibited from carrying his gun.")

OTOH, it's hard to admire or even respect a guy who repeatedly pokes the tiger through the bars of its cage to display his conspicuous bravery to bystanders. When the tiger tries the occasional swipe, he persuades them it's not fighting fair.

It's predictable that when the tiger eventually swats him, he won't be counting his blessings that it kept its claws sheathed; he'll be reporting it to the court of public opinion as an outrage against humanity.

And expecting someone else to pay his medical bills.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by Andrew Troup

It's *not* being outside the law which makes Andhoey's tactics offensive to me.
It's how he does it, and why he does it.

I think the above is interesting. You seem to be saying its o.k. to break some laws as long as its done in some style and fashion that appeals to you.

Time will tell how Jarle is viewed ... hero or villian. When Moitessier thumbed his nose at society, the media, sponsors, wife and kids, etc. and continue to sail on in the Golden Globe Race I think he was roundly criticized by most but look at his status now ... cult hero to many. Just a thought.

[matauwhi]

"Time will tell how Jarle is viewed ... hero or villian."
G'day, mates. He certainly can't be viewed in the same league as Shackleton since he's already lost 3 crew members. Cheers.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by matauwhi

"Time will tell how Jarle is viewed ... hero or villian."
G'day, mates. He certainly can't be viewed in the same league as Shackleton since he's already lost 3 crew members. Cheers.

Shackleton would be a hard act of follow. Maybe Scott since he lost his entire crew.

[adeneo]

ICE, I disagree with most of your points, Jarle went to Antarctica when he was only 19 years old and stayed in the area for about three months, with no media following him what so ever, he also sailed for years all around the world without the media paying any attention to him or his expeditions, and my impression of Jarle is that he doesn’t much care one way or the other, and that he is no way your average celebrity trying to get his face in the news all the time. Filming his expeditions and making them into an enjoyable TV-show is probably more of a means to an end and pretty much finances he’s dreams to explore the seas, and I see nothing wrong with this, and it doesn’t make him less of a sailor in any way, it just makes him a little bit savvier than the ones that went before him.

When the Berserk sank he was somewhat of a local celebrity from his TV-shows, but they weren’t really that popular in Norway, and a lot of Norwegians didn’t really know who he was or had even heard of the guy, but the sinking of his ship certainly made him more known not only to Norwegians, but to others interested in sailing and polar explorations all over the world.

When the media starts requesting interviews and spinning stories about the events surrounding his ship sinking, what was he suppose to do, refuse based on his high moral integrity? Do you think any of the other people who go on expeditions like this would just calmly refuse to comment such events claiming that it would be morally wrong for them to do so?

By all accounts these expeditions where well planned, and the planning started months and years before they set off. Of course this is not part of the TV-series as it would be boring to watch a bunch of guys just preparing for an expedition, the same goes for the expeditions themselves, and previous crew members have all stated that Jarle is extremely careful about the security of his ship and crew, and that they trained for months in advance for these journeys, although it does of course not seem that way in the TV-series, where it’s supposed to look like this is some sort of journey made on a whim by a bunch of moron Vikings.
Jarle is also known to keep a tight ship, where decisions are discussed, but eventually decided upon by Jarle. Here’s a Norwegian article with a little more on the subject.

I’ve read most of the articles regarding Jarle Andhøy, as far as I can tell these claims regarding the NZ navy being responsible is not coming directly from Jarle, he has cleverly kept his mouth shut about who’s to actually blame, but I guarantee you he feels a great deal of responsibility himself, and that is why he has returned to Antartica, to try and find answers.

It is true that he was the expeditions leader, but not being aboard the Berserk when it sank, there wasn’t really much he could do to save the boat, as he was on his way to the south pole and do not know why the Berserk sank.
Speculating in why the boat would leave an anchorage and go out to sea in the middle of a storm is not the same as blatantly blaming others, and Jarle Andhøy is probably the one with the most experience when it comes to this particular boat, and he is also regarded as one of the few people still alive with extensive experience from sailing a small yacht in polar regions.

Writing about flexible bureaucrats, you have obviously never been to Norway, there is no such thing as flexible bureaucrats making individual allowances here.

I’ve never been to Antarctica, but just today there was an article in a Norwegian newspaper where several experienced people who have been there claims that he was not too late, and that January/February is the best time to go as a lot of the ice belt has melted at this time, but again, I have no experience from actually having been to Antartica, Jarle on the other hand has, and there have been several people who has previously gone to the South pole who has supported him and his expedition, but accidents do happen, and the crew where most likely painfully aware of the dangers they were putting themselves into, and decided to go of their own free will.

Getting a permit from the Norwegian Polar Institute is not as easy as some would have it be. You would either need an insurance or some sort of guarantee that you can pay the bills if something where to happen. In most cases a guarantee is given as insurance is obviously not something most insurance companies will give out for an expedition like this. The going rate required by the Polar Institute is around 500k USD deposited in a special bank account or something similar.

Taking into account the cost of obtaining a permit, and even if one where to find an insurance company willing to cover such a journey it would probably cost you quite a lot, and adding to that the cost of equipment, travels etc. going to the south pole being “free and self-reliant” isn’t really an option, and the closest you could get would probably be to do what Jarle did, and just go, and he is in no way the first to do so either, Roald Amundsen left quietly when his creditors threatened to take his ship as payment for the money he owed, and he originally planned to go to the North pole but changed his mind and decided to go to the South pole instead when he received word that Peary had actually reached the North pole before Amundsen could get there. He told his crew where they were going when they passed Madeira, and told Fridtjof Nansen who he had borrowed the ship from where they had been when they came back, as he was afraid Nansen would not approve of his ship going halfway around the world to the other pole instead.

Regarding stupid laws and where the line is, speed limits are there to save lives, and they have a clearly defined purpose that is there to protect us all from being ran over by someone who’s driving too fast. Not allowing someone to enter the great country of Canada based on their affiliation to a motorcycle club surely has to be one of those remarkably stupid laws, and in my opinion so are the laws that gives the Norwegian Polar Institute the right to decide if someone can sail beyond some invisible border half way across the world.

[ice]

Originally Posted by adeneo

Jarle went to Antarctica when he was only 19

I agree his first trip was much better in this regard. I had great hope that he would develop into a polar expedition inspiration and role model from that trip.

Filming his expeditions and making them into an enjoyable TV-show is probably more of a means to an end and pretty much finances he’s dreams to explore the seas, and I see nothing wrong with this

I did not say there was anything wrong with filming. There have been some great expedition filming. What I said was that this media exposure did two bad things - set him out as an example/role model, but a bad one, of leadership and responsibility (just for example for blaming the NZ navy for his vessel sinking) and for forcing the bureaucrats to publicly take notice.

When the media starts requesting interviews and spinning stories about the events surrounding his ship sinking, what was he suppose to do, refuse based on his high moral integrity?

Take personal responsibility as expedition leader for poor decisions and plans - not just on this trip but also previous ones.

By all accounts these expeditions where well planned,

No, by all professional standards these have been miserably planned.

he is also regarded as one of the few people still alive with extensive experience from sailing a small yacht in polar regions.

No, there are at least 20 skippers with much more experienced in Antarctic sailing than Jarle and about another at least 20 with much more experience in Arctic sailing, many of whom have commented on Jarles poor planning and execution.

Writing about flexible bureaucrats, you have obviously never been to Norway

Actually I lived and worked in Oslo for a couple years, and have sailed in Norway and Sweden.

I’ve never been to Antarctica, but just today there was an article in a Norwegian newspaper where several experienced people who have been there claims that he was not too late,

You need to understand that the conditions in the Ross sea, where Jarle is, are quite different than the Peninsula, where most people sail 'to Antarctica'. The fact that last year, Jarle just caught the last plane out, and because of the sinking this was weeks before he had planned to be back at the boat, should tell you something about the timing of the season.

the crew where most likely painfully aware of the dangers they were putting themselves into, and decided to go of their own free will.

The crew was depending on Jarle's judgement, decision making and planning. And he let them down. There is NO safe all weather anchorage in the Ross sea, unlike what Jarle told them and continues to tell the media. He was too late in the season to get to the pole and back safely. He had no refueling arranged at the pole . . . and on and on.

Getting a permit from the Norwegian Polar Institute is not as easy as some would have it be. You would either need an insurance or some sort of guarantee that you can pay the bills if something where to happen.

Well .. . given that Jarle forced an expensive search and rescue effort, took a government air-evac . . . is that such an unreasonable requirement?

Taking into account the cost of obtaining a permit,

There is no fee for the permit

and even if one where to find an insurance company willing to cover such a journey it would probably cost you quite a lot,

You can get such insurance from at least three sources and the cost is on the order of $2000 (for the peninsula - it would probably be a bit more for the Ross but not more than double that).

and adding to that the cost of equipment, travels etc. going to the south pole being “free and self-reliant” isn’t really an option,

I don't agree with that. There are several people who have done the antarctic region in a low cost and self reliant manner. I have mentioned a few names you should look up in prior posts. People who have made wonderful adventures and expeditions with very little money and leaving behind zero ill will.

But if that is Jales opinion, then either he should sail somewhere were being free and self reliant is an option for him, or he should follow the accepted rules.

Not allowing someone to enter the great country of Canada based on their affiliation to a motorcycle club surely has to be one of those remarkably stupid laws,

You need to look up 'outlaw motorcycle clubs' to understand why the badged members of the Hell's Angles not welcome in Canada. It's not 'just a motorcycle club'!

and in my opinion so are the laws that gives the Norwegian Polar Institute the right to decide if someone can sail beyond some invisible border half way across the world.

Fine. You are certainly welcome to your opinion and welcome to try to change Norwegian law and regulations. But it is the current law for Norwegian flagged vessels and passport holders, and given Jarles fiasco last year the requirements do not seem completely unreasonable.

.....

[Andrew Troup]

"as far as I can tell these claims regarding the NZ navy being responsible is not coming directly from Jarle, he has cleverly kept his mouth shut about who’s to actually blame"

That's not actually the case, unless he was talking to Radio New Zealand with his mouth shut when he made the claim. If so, I concede that he's clever.

They recorded and broadcast him saying it. Radio New Zealand journalists are regularly in Antarctica researching and reporting on exploration and research, so they know their way around the issues and the context.

They have also reported in a way that is so commendably but infuriatingly neutral and judgement free that I felt impelled to find a forum where the issue was being discussed intelligently, in order to put the case for the defence (of the authorities in question), and wound up here.

The only reason Anhoey gave for his inference was that it was "unlogic" for Berserk to leave a safe anchorage, and leave land, given the expected weather.

- - - - - - -

If Jarle Andhoey were a sailor with the experience and judgment proportional to his ambitions, he would not describe Backdoor Bay as a 'safe anchorage' under the conditions forecast. It's a delusional proposition.

Furthermore he would realise that the most likely scenarios would include some or all of the following:

-- Involuntary exit from Backdoor Bay:

Berserk was blown out of the anchorage. Either they dragged, or the cables parted, or they tried to shift or re-lay when their position became untenable, and could not hold station against the windforce.

This is the overwhelmingly likely scenario, and by not acknowledging this, Jarle loses any semblance of credibility. Anyone who bypasses likely explanations in favour of unlikely ones is no longer using their intellect, but is in the grip of their emotions.

-- Voluntary exit from Backdoor Bay:

a) Berserk decided to move to the better anchorage at Horseshoe Bay, or the crewman with tooth-ache wanted to be taken to MacMurdo. In either scenario, the wind strength (forecast to be in excess of 60 knots but actually in excess of 100) blew them out to sea

b) Berserk wanted to live up to their cheesy name, and test themselves against the elements (desperately unlikely, but people sometimes do stupid things when they hitch their aspirations to a misguided purpose, and a charismatic charlatan is in charge, and in support of this I need mention only two words: "Reality" TV)

If, as you claim, he is a savvy person, gaming the system in order that gullible people will fund his adventures,

"he is also regarded as one of the few people still alive with extensive experience from sailing a small yacht in polar regions." He may be so regarded, by people who have read the same articles you have, or those who wrote them, guided presumably by press releases from Andhoey, or failing that by sentiment.

I could list fifty people with genuine experience without referring to any articles, who are very much alive, and in some cases I can personally vouch for this.

It appears that the sources you are using to make your judgements are inadequate, and I appreciate that being removed from the situation, you and others siding with Andhoey are forced to make judgments on the basis of mainstream journalism, to whom the issues and context are essentially a closed book.

Essentially their most comfortable role, and perhaps the only one for which they are truly equipped, is as cheerleaders for the fanboys and fangirls. Caveat emptor!

[adeneo]

Originally Posted by Andrew Troup

Berserk was blown out of the anchorage. Either they dragged, or the cables parted, or they tried to shift or re-lay when their position became untenable, and could not hold station against the windforce.

This is the overwhelmingly likely scenario, and by not acknowledging this, Jarle loses any semblance of credibility. Anyone who bypasses likely explanations in favour of unlikely ones is no longer using their intellect, but is in the grip of their emotions.

And at the same time they would of course send Jarle a sms saying "everything is fine, leaving Horseshoe Bay now, contact us when you can" ???

[Andrew Troup]

SMS?
Andhoey has withdrawn this claim.

I can think of two reasons this might be so

1) The nearest SMS cells are as far away as Africa is from Norway (at the Argentine bases on the Antarctic peninsula, or at the bottom of NZ).

more seriously:

2) The message is totally inconsistent with being commanded to leave by a warship under potentially life-threatening circumstances. In other words, it no longer suits his theory (which frankly looks more and more like a classic conspiracy theory).

Read earlier posts for reasons why such an order from the NZ ship was about as likely as one from the Pope.

Furthermore:
It is the Norwegian authorities, not the NZ authorities, who had a problem with anchoring and shorelines south of 60 deg.