Alpha 42 "Be Good Too" rescue 300 miles off Cape Henry Merged

[smj]

Originally Posted by RunawayC47

Here is a pic from The Bitter End BVI last year. Attachment 77898

Conser 47 with stern extensions?

[RunawayC47]

Yes it is. Removed heaven front swim ladder and added rear steps with swim ladder. Great addition. Easy access, increased buoyancy, longer waterline and reduced wake.

Designed by a naval architect and done with John Consers help. Core cell and west system epoxy.

[RunawayC47]

Here is a pic of the Alpha hull #1 being built

[Andrew Troup]

Wouldn't it make more sense to hoist the storm staysail to balance the boat than run the motor?

[RunawayC47]

I have no knowledge if a storm tri sail was in their inventory. From the account I also read they felt overpowered with just the main with 2 reefs. If that was not the case the a storm head sail would make sense. Many boats these days rely on a partially furled headsail for heavy weather. This approach has it's drawbacks in failures and performance.

With strong winds speeds can easily get out of hand for the sea conditions. Motors are a tool that all good captains use when needed. There is no stigma to using them properly when needed. They will give you a level of control especially if your situation prevents you from running with the sea state or crossing waves. Leaving some sail up will help stabilize the boat. In heavy weather I will generally run at a downwind angle using just a jib rather than using the main. If pointing as in a lee shore was required the main would be needed. I try to avoid that situation. I carry a sea anchor I have thankfully never had to use.

[Andrew Troup]

Originally Posted by RunawayC47

... Many boats these days rely on a partially furled headsail for heavy weather. This approach has it's drawbacks in failures and performance.

Agreed.

In truly heavy weather, I think it's a terrible idea.

Originally Posted by RunawayC47

Motors are a tool that all good captains use when needed. ....

I agree, subject always to availability.

Heavy weather can last for days...

and to expect auxiliary engines and their installation to be as reliable as the engine(s) in an offshore power vessel... I'm personally a bit queasy about that proposition.

It seems to me like something which would only happen in a one-off build, with a highly experienced project manager riding the designer and then the builder hard.

And for a multihull, I would think (from a standpoint of relative ignorance because it's not my field) that there might be compromises to be made, in terms of the performance implications, of a truly "industrial-strength" installation.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by RunawayC47

Mine is a 50' performance cat. My shafts are 2 3/8" stainless tubes.

I have done the route they were attempting 5 times always in Nov. It can be nasty. The first time from Long Island which I would prefer not to do again. I would not want to do it in Jan. I have had similar situations with odd waves at odd angles out of nowhere. They can be very violent.

One in particular took 2 - 6'4" 250lb men and threw them across the cockpit leaving 6" of water in the cockpit. That was the only time we have ever had water in the cockpit. After that I made the drains bigger. Was it a rogue wave I don't know? But very violent. We could have easily lost a rudder but luckily didn't.

I believe the hard turned rudder had a major influence in the rudder failure. The longer I sail the more I respect the power of the ocean particularly the North Atlantic.

Your rudder stocks are 4 times as strong as the Alpha's, as the bending strength of a tube varies with the cube of the diameter. Stock diameter has a lot more to do with losing a rudder than luck or how hard the rudder is turned.

All designer/builders can make mistakes--the difference is how they handle them.

I had a Santa Cruz 27, and after a hard run (39 miles in less than 3 hours) where our ringer driver kept the boat on its feet by jerking the tiller as hard as he could, the stainless steel rudder shaft bent. I showed the shaft to the designer/builder Bill Lee. In less than two weeks Bill developed a stronger fiberglass stock rudder and gave me one--it has lasted over 30 years and so has our friendship.

Your friend Tarjan's response was to post (or allow to be posted) the following on his website:

"t should be noted that the rudders of the boat were built of massive 1.5 inch solid stainless round tube welded to a closed framework of 2″ wide by 1/4″ thick stainless bars with (2) vertical and (3) horizontal members. Unfortunately no rudder is designed to suddenly lurch into reverse and have 10 Tons of torque applied to them."

To me, that posting is a bigger mistake than under-designing the rudder stock for offshore sailing.

[Andrew Troup]

I can see points on both sides.

A 1.5 inch ruddershaft seems inadequate to me for a craft that size and weight and performance potential

And I agree with Don that any rudder angle is fair game, EXCEPT when flung astern, ie making rapid sternway.

In the latter circumstance, I think, it's probably unrealistic to expect a rudder which is hard-over to survive.

Which is why that condition is so important to avoid.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by RunawayC47

Here is a pic of the Alpha hull #1 being builtAttachment 77920

Anyone who looked closely at this picture would probably have serious concerns about the build quality of this boat. Got more?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by minaret

Anyone who looked closely at this picture would probably have serious concerns about the build quality of this boat. Got more?

Minaret, that's a leading statement for sure!

For the benefit of we who know little about such things, would you please expand on your thoughts? I'm very interested!

Cheers,

Jim

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Minaret, that's a leading statement for sure!

For the benefit of we who know little about such things, would you please expand on your thoughts? I'm very interested!

Cheers,

Jim

Hard to say for sure, but it looks like they've bonded in structural core using braces and cinder blocks for weights. If so, that's back yard boat building. They also appear to be aligning a foam stringer using strips of masking tape to hold it in place. The stringer/reinforcement across from it which has already been glassed looks like it was fit by a drunk man. So does the one they are working on. Perhaps I'm totally wrong (why I asked for more), but as someone who's worked on a number of high end builds and in some large production facilities, I'd say it doesn't look good. Wonder if anyone agrees with me?

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Minaret, that's a leading statement for sure!

For the benefit of we who know little about such things, would you please expand on your thoughts? I'm very interested!

Cheers,

Jim

This also looks more like a one-off build than the beginnings of a fully tooled factory run.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by minaret

This also looks more like a one-off build than the beginnings of a fully tooled factory run.

For sure! It does look a bit hen-house, even to me! And I did note that the reinforcement on the outboard side looked a bit off, but I don't have any standards to judge by. One does hope that they used MIL spec cinder blocks...

Thanks for the comments.

Jim

[Andrew Troup]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The USCG does not have the power to " force" an abandonment.
In the US that only occurs on the issue of a mayday.
In the US, mayday, means you have forgone the duties of skipper.
Even then the USCG has no record of forcing people from their boats.
....
Dave

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I hate to provide grist for the mill for anyone who might have Dave pigeon-holed as a 'serial categoricalist', but the only only one of the four sentences in the above quote I can *not* prove wrong is the third one:

"In the US, Mayday means you have foregone the duties of a skipper"

The fact that I don't know it to be wrong doesn't stop me wishing it was.

The only consolation is that (to the best of my knowledge) the corrected information (as opposed to Dave's incorrect summary) applies only to US flagged vessels.

[JPA Cate]

To the best of my knowledge "mayday" means only that there is immanent danger of loss of life as well as ship--nothing at all about foregoing dury as skipper.

This pertains both to U.S. waters and international waters.

Ann