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Forum: Challenges

29-11-2013, 15:15

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

The proofs I suggested above would answer SL case as a special case of the more general question "does current ever change the optimal water referenced sailing angle".

Forum: Challenges

29-11-2013, 14:59

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

SL,

You are simply not reading Dave's posts correctly.

He is very explicitly talking about a case with (constant) current vs a case without current.

The starboard tack scenario I described...

Forum: Challenges

29-11-2013, 14:42

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Paul,

yes, Dave' point is that simple and we do all agree with it.

It is only being debated because SL is for some reason (almost willfully) misunderstanding what he is saying.

As to...

Forum: Challenges

29-11-2013, 14:28

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

No, again you must be misunderstanding what Dave is saying.

Let's say you are sailing closed hauled in no current, with the apparent wind 30 degrees on starboard (let's say that is the water...

Forum: Challenges

29-11-2013, 13:40

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

SL,

I believe you are talking true (water referenced) wind direction (eg a compass direction) and Dave is talking wind angle with respect to the boat (eg an angle from the bow).

Just consider...

Forum: Challenges

29-11-2013, 11:33

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Dave, I believe we all agree with you on this. Current will effect the wind experienced on the boat (vs no current) both in speed and direction. And allow you to sail different courses than you...

Forum: Challenges

29-11-2013, 10:27

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

SL,

I am "sitting on the fence" for two reasons:

1. I don't know if you were involved in the DDWFTTW debate? The question was asked if it was possible to sail dead down wind faster than the...

Forum: Challenges

29-11-2013, 08:00

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

SL,

I have said repeatedly that I am making no comment at all about the answer. I am commenting on methodology. (Edit:actually more correctly, I have repeatedly said I suspect you are right but...

Forum: Challenges

29-11-2013, 02:12

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

It is certainly provable.

But calculating individual special cases cannot ever prove your claim (that the effect never exists), unless you can also prove that those special cases represent all...

Forum: Challenges

29-11-2013, 01:14

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Fair enough . . . You are only saying that you are making a claim, not to have proved it. That's exactly what I have been saying.

I suspect you are right. Which means that it would be rather...

Forum: Challenges

29-11-2013, 00:46

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

^^

SL, nothing I clipped changed the meaning. Both the bold part and the full paragraph were ambiguously/poorly written. I realized after I wrote my post that he probably meant that the different...

Forum: Challenges

28-11-2013, 14:34

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

^^ FS . . . . actually, according to b&g definitions both vmg and vmc reference boat speed thru the water and not sog. Eg it is water referenced and can be calculated by b&g systems without reference...

Forum: Challenges

28-11-2013, 10:13

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

This is all fine if your vmg is ground referenced velocity toward the mark, and includes the current effect on the vessel speed. (As it would be calculated by a GPS)

But I believe that DH and SL...

Forum: Challenges

28-11-2013, 09:13

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

This is a definitional issue. What I was simply trying to point out, purely as an aside, is that there is a spectrum of angle/speed trade-offs used for different upwind (and downwind) situations,...

Forum: Challenges

28-11-2013, 07:19

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

The lee bow trade-off to discuss is vmg vs distance to sail.

You cannot analytically answer that trade-off without using polars.

And yes, slow vs fast mode tends to have to do with variable...

Forum: Challenges

28-11-2013, 07:04

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

.....

Forum: Challenges

28-11-2013, 06:20

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

It's fine for you to assert that. It may even be true. My simple point was that you cannot prove it analytically without including polars.

By the way, you do know that racers have upwind "fast/low...

Forum: Challenges

28-11-2013, 05:50

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

SL

you seemed to miss my point . . . Which was simply that you cannot answer the lee bow question analytically without including polars because (a) your course to steer depend on boat speed thru...

Forum: Challenges

28-11-2013, 04:02

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Just to expand on that a little . . . .

Dockhead has tried to eliminate the ground reference by creating a fixed CTS.

However, for the lee bow question that does not work . . . Because CTS...

Forum: Challenges

14-11-2013, 09:28

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

You and I are agreeing, but you don't seem to realize it (my bad writing perhaps). We agree it is all about being on the right side of shifts.

Sometimes (something more than 50% because of the...

Forum: Challenges

14-11-2013, 04:19

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Just about the "boat floating in the current, so the current dies not matter" thought . . . . Airplanes float in the air but the wind does make a difference when they are landing. You always land...

Forum: Challenges

11-11-2013, 09:44

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Dockhead, you are obviously not a racer. You win if you are only one meter ahead of the other boat. Very small differences often make the difference in winning vs. not. And modern slow race boats...

Forum: Challenges

11-11-2013, 04:15

Replies: 774

Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

Views: 57,001

Posted By estarzinger

Re: Let's Get to the Bottom of the Lee-Bow Effect Once and For All

I have seen no mention about boat polars in this thread. That seems to be a serious omission.

You all seem to be assuming that optimal vmg upwing sailing angle is constant. But that is (usually)...

Showing results 1 to 23 of 23

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