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Old 21-03-2013, 11:52   #1
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Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

What is best storm tactic for a 36' Colin Archer design, steel double-ender with masthead configuration? Is there a preferred method for double-enders over other stern designs?
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Old 21-03-2013, 12:33   #2
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pirate Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

If I've the sea room I'd heave to reefed right down..
If not and no easy ports nearby and a lee shore I'd motor sail/tack for sea room..
I'll leave the sea anchor/drogue to someone who's actually used one under fire..
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Old 21-03-2013, 13:03   #3
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

yes, this was assuming far offshore with no lee shore or ports near.
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Old 21-03-2013, 14:43   #4
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Out in the deep blue , I had great success with heaving-to on my hans christian. The turbulence from the long keel did help to reduce the impact of waves.

All in all after lying like this with 3 reefs and staysail backed It has become my number one defense... I do carry a jordan drogue, but hope to never get it out the bag! That would be a bad day!!

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Old 21-03-2013, 15:07   #5
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

The endless debate begins again... Here is what I would do:

1. Keep sailing under reduced canvas as long as possible. Have a triple reef in the main--forget the trysail, at least in my experience. If conditions are so bad you might want to set a trysail it is too hard to do so safely. If you've got a solid inner forestay cutter rig a small storm staysail is very useful.

2. Possibly heave-to for rest after that, or sail until tired, heave-to to rest, etc.

3. If the waves get really nasty, high and breaking, that is when you break out the drag equipment. IMHO one of the best is the Jordan series drogue off the stern, but I have not used one. I have used a parachute sea anchor, and I was happy with its performance when in use, but they are the devil to retrieve. I have also found the parachute is useful for stopping the boat and stabilizing it if you have to repair something, even if conditions aren't that extreme. I did this after losing my steering offshore and it allowed me to make repairs with the boat reasonably stable.
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Old 21-03-2013, 15:21   #6
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

On my old cutter rigged Ingrid 38 was caught in a couple of blows, one off the Vancouver Island west coast out around 35 miles the other closer in off Cape Mendicino in Northern CA. Both times lashed wheel over and backwinded staysail with one reef in her and we lay ahull very comfortably for close to 24 hours each time. We tried a storm sail in its own track beside the main but couldn't get the boat balanced correctly so just stuck with the smaller staysail... worked fine. No drogue or warps because we were only making 1-2 knots headed further offshore. Kept a close watch all night for freighters, though. Phil
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Old 21-03-2013, 15:23   #7
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

Drogues (Jordan seems like the best) are meant to slow the boat and keep her stern to the wind and seas. Sea anchor is meant to halt the boat, and keep her bow to the wind & seas. Does one approach make more (or less) sense for a full-keel, traditional rigged boat?

Fin-keel, flat-bottom (modern?) hulls clearly benefit from a drogue, but is this as useful for us older deep-wine shaped hull sailors? Especially boats (like mine) with transom-hung barn door rudders?
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Old 21-03-2013, 16:33   #8
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

I've always found a following sea is the most dangerous, I am firmly in the camp of head into the seas, quartering when possible. I vote sea anchor opposed to the Jordan drogue. I am also of the full keel, barn door rudder, monohull camp.
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Old 21-03-2013, 16:58   #9
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

Fortunately, in my years of sailing full keel boats I never got to the point of needing a drag device. The worst offshore weather I was in was when we owned a 32-foot catamaran and were a good chunk of the way from NC to the Caribbean. We used a parachute sea anchor and thought it worked as advertised. Little drift, with plenty of rode out there wasn't a sense that the loads on the boat were enormous. She rose to the seas quite nicely for the most part, and the parachute definitely created an area of calm behind it. I watched the chute hour after hour with and without binoculars (it was out 400 feet) and waves would break where it was, but leave an area protected downwind of it where we were. Some people have reported a very rough ride with the boat taking a pounding on a parachute, but I wonder if they had out enough rode--my feeling is that more is better. That rode put a lot of spring in the system, dampening the impacts on the boat and reducing downward pull so that we could rise to the seas. One advantage of bow into the seas is that is the way your boat was designed to take bad weather, and you have some shelter in the cockpit. Stern on and the cockpit is a pretty dangerous place.
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Old 21-03-2013, 17:17   #10
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

I have not got any experience in double enders in big seas but friends that were in the same vacinity as us had a 34 foot full keel double ender. We had about 40-45 knot winds from behind us and after a full day of this the seas got to a reasonable size. He tried going with the seas but he was not able to steer the boat safely especially when it started to surf(those barn door rudders are not the best) He was very inexperienced and I could hear his wife screaming at him when we were on the radio, LOL. I told him to hove to and he said he'd never done it before. After a conversation he got it set up and and turned upwind, I guess his timing wasn't very good because he said they got knocked down. Anyways they both laid on the floor and cried together. The next afternoon things settled down and they were able to continue sailing. We had no issues with steering on the Tartan 44 and our Fleming vane looked after things just fine. We did get pooped once but other than that a rough ride but no problems. Running off in strong winds and big seas is a reasonable way to deal with them but its usually not a good option for the full keel double ender boats as they just don't have the steerage when the boat starts to surf but if you drag warps or something to slow you down then it can be a reasonable option.
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Old 21-03-2013, 17:33   #11
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimea Cruiser View Post
What is best storm tactic for a 36' Colin Archer design, steel double-ender with masthead configuration? Is there a preferred method for double-enders over other stern designs?

Get Pardey's STORM TACTICS. We sat through their presentation at a boat show and bought the book. It is short, to the point and really good.

Storm Tactics Handbook: Modern Methods of Heaving-to for Survival in Extreme Conditions, 3rd Edition: Lin Pardey, Larry Pardey: 9781929214471: Amazon.com: Books
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Old 21-03-2013, 18:07   #12
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

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Originally Posted by Crimea Cruiser View Post
What is best storm tactic for a 36' Colin Archer design, steel double-ender with masthead configuration? Is there a preferred method for double-enders over other stern designs?
Double-enders are just like any other enders.

If there is a shore to the lee, you will probably go slowly tight-reaching.

If there is no shore there, or if your destination is roughly downwind, you will be running before the storm.

In a double-ender, running before the gale can be very comfortable - unlike in plain vanilla conditions - a boat going fast and nearly fully powered will be far less rolly. But if the storm builds, there will be some issues:
- a wave may stave-in your companion door,
- a wave may smash the driver against the bulkhead,
- a wave may sweep the driver away,
- a wave may soak the driver beyond use.

And if the driver ducks below, a wave may toss the boat and broach her. And that's that, unless you are lucky and there was only one wave. Normally, if you broach, the next one will either wipe you out or (touch wood) roll you beyond flat.

Many double-enders of the Colin Archer style will lay hove too very comfortably, but that's due to their keel, not their stern, configuration. Personally, all other things equal, I would lay hove-to until the storm builds up but any longer. If I could not run, then I would get her moving again - tight reaching into the storm at comfortable speed.

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Old 21-03-2013, 18:18   #13
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

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Originally Posted by Crimea Cruiser View Post
yes, this was assuming far offshore with no lee shore or ports near.
Then this depends on where your destination is. Fore-reach slowly if you are sailing to a place upwind of you, run if the destination is downwind.

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Old 21-03-2013, 18:25   #14
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
(...) Fin-keel, flat-bottom (modern?) hulls clearly benefit from a drogue, but is this as useful for us older deep-wine shaped hull sailors? Especially boats (like mine) with transom-hung barn door rudders?
IMHO only as much as there is any risk of your boat accelerating down the slope and getting out of hand. This may happen when waves are very steep and your boat is like a Valiant or like our tub (double-ender, but not heavy displacement). It would take a very, very bad day to send a proper Colin Archer hull flying.

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Old 21-03-2013, 19:11   #15
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Re: Storm Tactics for Double-Enders?

I was already having my thoughts of having a single headsail rig setup. I was under belief at first that the boat was intended to be a cutter rig with bowsprit. Perhaps it is warranted to investigate a reconfiguration to such a scheme.
I have read that double-enders have tendency to pitch more at anchor than other hull versions. so I wondered if this movement feature was amplified in heavy weather. Hopefully I will never have to find out.
I have already been told by prior owner that she hoves-to well. But wanted to hear other opinions and experiences on this matter. I thought one reason Archer designed the double hull feature was to be able to have safe options in either direction during heavy weather and high seas. To minimize deck exposure to getting pooped. plus small fast draining cockpit.
I agree that the bow is where most boats have the most strength built into them. At least this was the case with my Cape Dory. So I lean toward the triple reefed, hove-to stance.
As far as my destination is concerned. Personally I could care less where my destination is in storm conditions, as long as it is not onto a lee shore, reef or other hazard. I am concerned with my safety and the safety of crew and vessel before I worry about if I make my destination a day or two earlier. Just my opinion.
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