Masthead Tricolor or Inhull/Pulpits Running Lights

[capt jgw]

Sometimes you have to pick the category that best fits your condition. Not Under Command is described in COLREGS as being unable to maneuver "by some exceptional circumstance" which generally means something is broken. If you were lying to bare poles because you were injured or sick, that would be NUC. If you were just resting, it would not be. You would just be a vessel "underway but not making way" which would be lit the same as it would underway, in this case as a sailing vessel (engine is off, right?)

[admiralslater]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

Sometimes you have to pick the category that best fits your condition. Not Under Command is described in COLREGS as being unable to maneuver "by some exceptional circumstance" which generally means something is broken. If you were lying to bare poles because you were injured or sick, that would be NUC. If you were just resting, it would not be. You would just be a vessel "underway but not making way" which would be lit the same as it would underway, in this case as a sailing vessel (engine is off, right?)

+1
I know this conversation is getting a little esoteric but I am enjoying hearing other people's interpretations of the rules.
Also I believe that it bolsters the argument for taking some formal training.
I am not saying that you should not be able to put to sea with out it, just that it adds to a person's understanding of their surroundings

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Try it again.... ' a sailing vessel means any vessel under sail' ( I'll try a red highlight this time... that may help you) ....

If your sails are furled you are not 'under sail' therefore it follows from the above that you are not a sailing vessel but , lets say, you have no machinery fitted being a purist and all... so what are you?

I don't consider it a puzzle at all, I am simply asking you to explain it as you appear to have the answer to most things everything.

Ping of the Rio Pongo.

Dear Ping de Pong:

I'm sorry if I seem to you like someone who has an answer to everything. To myself, I seem to have only a few answers to a few things, and rather, a great many questions, for almost everything.

It's a much greater thing to see a mystery and puzzle in something, than not, so you should not have considered that remark to have been a challenge or criticism. In the case as you originally posed it, however -- a vessel with the engine shut down and sails furled, and not anchored, is just like any ship, drifting. If you're not NUC, then you're treated as being underway. I don't think that's controversial.



If there's no machinery at all (as you now pose it) -- OK, I don't have an answer to that. That IS a puzzle.

I think the most logical answer might be that you are under sail, just like a power driven vessel drifting is considered a power driven vessel under way. If you don't have any machinery at all, then you won't even have lights for being under power. But I just made that up -- no idea what courts say about it.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

If the light is mounted as close to the centerline as possible, it would not be perfect, but I have seen many boats set up that way. It makes it a little harder to see at night from one side. I have never seen one on a stalk all by itself and in the way......

Ann

Assuming there isn't a whole lot of junk hanging off the back of the boat then centreline on either the taffrail or transom itself will be just fine... don't forget a stern light's arc of visibility is from 2 points abaft the port beam to two points abaft the starboard beam.

Ping

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Adelie

What did I miss, how would it not meet the requirements of a stern light? Right color, right arc. Too high?

Wrong location for one thing.

“Sternlight” means a white light placed as nearly as practicable at the stern showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 135 degrees and so fixed as to show the light 67.5 degrees from right aft on each side of the vessel."
whereas:

"A power-driven vessel underway shall exhibit:
(i) a masthead light forward;
"

The point about having both a masthead light and a sternlight is that as you move around the vessel, a light in one location ceases to be visible and a light in another location, both horizontally and vertically becomes visible. That change in location gives clues as to the vessels direction.

[admiralslater]

Rule 27 -1
Vessel NUC 2 vertical all around reds mounted where best visable. Day shape 2 balls. No mention of power or sail
If same is making way normal side and stern lights . Not sure of how you make way while NUC but there it is

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by admiralslater

Rule 27 -1
Vessel NUC 2 vertical all around reds mounted where best visable. Day shape 2 balls. No mention of power or sail
If same is making way normal side and stern lights . Not sure of how you make way while NUC but there it is

'Rule 3. The term "vessel not under command" means a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.'

An example ... I was once on a twin screw ship where the port engine was disabled... thrust bearings shot.. steam turbine.
Anyway we could still make about 15 knots but to maintain heading were carrying about 10 degrees starboard helm and altering to starboard was a major problem. We carried NUC lights from south of the equator and half way up the english channel like that.

So yes you can make way and be NUC.

Back to the yacht scenario... a single handed skipper could possibly argue extreme fatigue.....

[StuM]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

So, you drop all your sails and are lying under bare poles with the engine off, what are you then? Well not you exactly... your boat but you know what I mean...

Enquiring minds want to know.....

Ping of the Rio Pongo

You are a power vessel as long you have some sort of propulsion engine installed.

You temporarily become a sailing vessel when you hoist your sails and have your engine turned off or in neutral.

To take it a step further:
If you have no propulsion engine installed and are lying under bare poles, I'd guess that you still fall under Rule 25:

"Sailing vessels underway and vessels under oars" since oars would be your only other viable method of propulsion.

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

If there's no machinery at all (as you now pose it) -- OK, I don't have an answer to that. That IS a puzzle.

If you have something on board that can be used as a paddle - perhaps you become a "vessel under oars"

(ii) A vessel under oars may exhibit the lights prescribed in this Rule for sailing vessels, but if she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision.

so a power-boat with the engine off, but with a paddle handy - maybe can exhibit a tricolour.

Unfortunately I don't think the Colregss actually defines a vessel under oars - nor who is stand-on.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

In the case as you originally posed it, however -- a vessel with the engine shut down and sails furled, and not anchored, is just like any ship, drifting. If you're not NUC, then you're treated as being underway. I don't think that's controversial.

If there's no machinery at all (as you now pose it) -- OK, I don't have an answer to that. That IS a puzzle.

I think the most logical answer might be that you are under sail, just like a power driven vessel drifting is considered a power driven vessel under way. If you don't have any machinery at all, then you won't even have lights for being under power. But I just made that up -- no idea what courts say about it.

Sorry, disagree.
If you are NUC or drifting you are still underway.
"The word “underway” means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground "

No propulsion engine and not actually under sail? You are not "under sail" as in:
"The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used"

If you want to move, you will need to break out oars/paddles/sweeps/yulos or start waggling your rudder! They are all a form of "oar" and Rule 25 still applies.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

so a power-boat with the engine off, but with a paddle handy - maybe can exhibit a tricolour.
.

Not the way I read it. Whether the engine is running or not, it's still a "power-driven vessel" if it has an engine installed.

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by StuM

Not the way I read it. Whether the engine is running or not, it's still a "power-driven vessel" if it has an engine installed.

Unless it is "under sail" ... so why not if it is "under oars" too.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by StuM

Wrong location for one thing.

“Sternlight” means a white light placed as nearly as practicable at the stern showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 135 degrees and so fixed as to show the light 67.5 degrees from right aft on each side of the vessel."
whereas:

"A power-driven vessel underway shall exhibit:
(i) a masthead light forward;
"

The point about having both a masthead light and a sternlight is that as you move around the vessel, a light in one location ceases to be visible and a light in another location, both horizontally and vertically becomes visible. That change in location gives clues as to the vessels direction.

So right now my dinghy in davits blocks the stern light. While powering can I use the all around masthead anchor light (in lieu of sternlight and steaming light) along with bow mounted red/green running lights? Obviously need to raise sternlight as permanent solution.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

Unless it is "under sail" ... so why not if it is "under oars" too.

You said "with a paddle handy", not "being paddled".

Same as a power-driven vessel with sails "ready to hoist" is not a sailing vessel.

Start paddling and you can now switch on the tricolour

[StuM]

Originally Posted by malbert73

So right now my dinghy in davits blocks the stern light. While powering can I use the all around masthead anchor light (in lieu of sternlight and steaming light) along with bow mounted red/green running lights? Obviously need to raise sternlight as permanent solution.

Please don't use the word "masthead" to mean "at the top of the mast". It tends to cause confusion in these discussions.

"Masthead light" has a specific meaning as far as Colregs is concerned and has little to do with the "top of the mast".

To answer, your question: Not if you want to be in compliance with Colregs.