Ready to Take the Plunge

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Well I am biased as I have no option but to like mine after spending 6 or 7 years completly refitting her. Back to bare wood (ply) inside and out, epoxy coated (with glass below the water line and on decks), New yanmar 2GM20 plus all new running gear, tanks, pumps, wiring, radios etc. All new fittings, rigging, sails etc. Only the mast, hull, keel, cabin, rudder is original and they were fully inspected etc.

Yes, well, after putting in that much work, you'd better like it I suppose.

Originally Posted by Wotname

I think they are a bit narrow for most people these days, everyone expects more internal room but that doesn't worry me personally.

If it was just me, I'd probably agree, however She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed has very definite ideas about how much room there is down below.

Originally Posted by Wotname

I am not sure if the balanced spade rudder is the best option for an off-shore boat, again it is a matter of compromise.

I've heard good and bad about those, I suppose it's like the ferro argument to some degree.

Originally Posted by Wotname

Mine was built professionally using top shelf materials and it shows up as the hull and cabin were in very good condition after 30 years.

This is something that seems to reflect across all boats. If it was well built to start with, it's still obvious years later.

Originally Posted by Wotname

Sails well and fast (but no longer a racer of course).

Never been a racer, though I will probably put us in the Tripolis if I have a boat by then.


Thanks for that, useful information.

AussieGeoff

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by AussieGeoff

.........Never been a racer, though I will probably put us in the Tripolis if I have a boat by then....

Me neither

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by Boracay

Having just been notified that I need my 5 year survey on a steel boat I can sympathise with your position. However I would strongly advise you to carefully check the credentials and track record of any company that you may be considering insuring with.

Not as significant here as you might think. Insurance companies are heavily regulated. At present however, my understanding it that you cannot insure a ferro boat in Oz. Period. It may be possible to get third party insurance. If/when we get the boat, we'll follow that up.

Originally Posted by Boracay

Having built a ferro boat I can see where your coming from. A similar boat to the one that I built was taken "round the world" while a friend took his from Oz to France only to have the side cave in when he "touched" a piling in one of the french canals.

Right, clearly it had serious construction issues. The one we have our eye on at the moment was built in 74 and is an Australian Registered Ship, so she's been around, which suggests she was built properly at least.

Originally Posted by Boracay

One consideration with ferro boats is that electrolytic corrosion may have taken place in the reinforcing.

I've seen quite a bit of discussion on that. It's something we need to check for. IF the armature is still well buried, it's less likely, again this comes back to the original construction to a significant degree.

One of the things I am looking into is the degree that highpowered HF radio and DC power may contribute to this and how to prevent/mitigate this. There is another thread somewhere discussing counterpoises for HF and a sideline into electrolytic effects and clearly this is a major issue for a ferro boat, if the armature is gone, you are left with a boat that will break if looked at harshly.

Originally Posted by Boracay

Australian boats do seem to be overpriced compared with those in the US but local prices may be coming down. There does not seem to be any financial penalty in waiting and looking.

Yes and no. It's late winter here and prices come up dramatically around late September to October as buyers emerge from their winter activities.

We will have cash for this and for various reasons we want to at least have a boat before October.

Originally Posted by Boracay

You have not told us of your cruising plans and budget so it is hard to advise, however if you are only planning local "gunkholing" then some of the larger trailer sailers may be suitable.

We are 'tied to the land' for a few years yet. So cruising will be in one week to one month stints. We'll start out locally (within the Gulfs) where it's relatively sheltered until we are comfortable with the boat. I'm training two novices with some help from other sailing friends, so we are not hurrying that part. Our purchase budget is about $18k, a bit less if we can manage it. There are several boats in that range on the East coast of Oz so that's where we are looking.

Originally Posted by Boracay

I recently followed a thread on this Forum where the purchase of one of the Rob Legg trailer sailers was discussed and was surprised to find the the RL24, RL28 and RL34 seem to sell for what would be considered for reasonable prices in OZ. Not true Water boats">blue water boats but they may be insurable in SA (do check, just guessing!!!!). The majority look to be in Queensland but they should be trailable or truckable.

We've looked at an RL24 but there are none to be had in SA right now.
I haven't seen a 28 or a 34 for some years now. Probably a few about.

Unfortunately they are probably too old to insure without a survey that would cost almost what the boat would. I have friends with a 22' Duncanson trailer sailer that may not be able to renew their insurance this year. That was a $6000 boat but it's getting on and the insurers here are a PITA for being pedantic about what they will and won't insure. This also applies to wooden boats, they are almost impossible to insure as well.

That said, insurance is less of an issue to me than some others.

As to trucking or trailing... Trucking a yacht here is extremely expensive, to give you an idea, a 40 foot hull only from Sydney to Queensland was around $3000 some years ago, probably double that now. On that basis shipping an RL anything from Queensland would probably cost almost as much as the boat. Consider that diesel fuel here is around $1.65 a litre...

Further to all this, She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed has some definite ideas about facilities and um, certain creature comforts if she is to go cruising, so that excludes anything much under 30ft. She is very supportive of the idea and keenly interested but she wants certain things in the boat and a bit of room to move. This means a) A toilet (not a portable - we've experience with those - all bad) and b) a shower. We have a teenage son and young grandchildren too, so again, something a bit larger is better even for short trips. I've spent some time (so has she) on our friends 22 footer and it's a little livelier than she likes (mind you it was a b.... of a day to take a first timer out, about a six foot swell and somewhat bigger waves) fortunately she didn't get seasick.

We have a caravan (travel trailer) realistically a kitchen and bedroom on wheels, and she finds that a bit lacking for more than a weekend due to the lack of toilet/shower etc. Rude expedients are ok for a weekend in the bush, but not two weeks on a boat.

Once we're getting comfortable we'll take a run around Kangaroo Island and back.

Naturally all this depends on the boat we end up with.

The ferro ketch is at the top of the list at the moment, the Hedges 32 sloop was sold already. The Roberts 29 we knocked back due to the engine being deceased. There's another Hartley 32 on Ebay that is also nice.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/320746324...84.m1438.l2649 But the 33 Foot Ketch is our first choice. Awaiting pics and more information. A couple of others on boatpoint.com.au in Sydney that may suit including a Daydream 28, although we would both prefer something a little larger and it's timber which is another can of worms insurance wise.

There's another Daydream 28 in Adelaide (not as good as the one in Sydney) for $8500, but it's minimally equipped and lacks a V berth so neither of us are keen on it.

But nothing is set in gelatine, we're still open to anything that pops up.

Thanks for your advice.

AussieGeoff

[Boracay]

I understand that insurance companies are well regulated here.

I believe its possible to get a piece of paper that says you are insured. The value of that insurance is normally assessed from the Product Disclosure Statement (PDS).

Caveat Emptor.

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by Boracay

I understand that insurance companies are well regulated here.

I believe its possible to get a piece of paper that says you are insured. The value of that insurance is normally assessed from the Product Disclosure Statement (PDS).

Caveat Emptor.

Oh? That might well be sufficient for most purposes. I'll look into that, thank you.

AussieGeoff

[AussieGeoff]

Well, jacta delenda est. Made an offer on the ferro ketch. Been a mooring queen since her current owner got her I suspect. Most of the paint is worn off the deck and the hull is expose from around the waterline down. Despite this the hull seems quite sound, the paint is fretting off all over the deck but the cement is quite sound where the paint is gone. Looks like a well made verandah in fact.

Nice interior, looks to be the original timber fitout below and no sign of rot etc. Dry boat by all accounts. The layout is not ideal but we can change it somewhat.

Standing is ok, running is probably uv weakened and kinked from disuse but we'll check it. Engine needs a starter motor or solenoid, but not seized and turns over by hand. Engine is dusty rather than rusty. It looks old and is probably original. We'll see how it comes up and pull it down if needed.

The headsail on the furler is pretty much flogged to death (in the words of the broker) but the rest of the sails are ok and there are boom tents on the main and mizzen. Electronics are basic, chartplotter, ancient sounder, VHF and 27Mhz marine radios and I think there's an inverter hiding somewhere.
Autohelm and wheel steering. Topside most of the issues are cosmetic. There is some minor damage and subsequent fretting to about a metre of the port gunwale, but it should be a straight forward repair and cure and a replacement of the timber dress strip. Electrics panel is old (original I think) but seems to be in working order.
Full saloon with head and shower in the forepeak. The head will need a macerator fitted to be legal in SA waters (beyond 3nm) but otherwise seems ok.

Galley is neat and tidy with gas stove with oven. There's a fridge as well as an icebox and there's also a washing machine!

Plenty of water in underfloor tanks (need to check for leakage but the bilges appear dry.

It needs to be slipped desperately (I suspect it hasn't been since the present owner got it in 97. Reason: He has no idea if it's full, shoal or bilge keel!) as I think most of the antifouling below the water is gone so it's probably Neptune's Garden down there.
Aside from that, no serious issues. No significant rust streaks or other indications of armature problems. She was built 73/74 so her age alone suggests she was well built.

In short, a good boat that's been mostly sitting on a mooring and had paint, antifouling etc seriously neglected, probably for ten years or more.

I think she'll brush up quite nicely and below decks is actually quite good and the only issues we have are with the layout, but nothing that's a show stopper.

We'll see. I've offered $3500 below the asking price on general principles and because she looks a bit of a mess topside. I've seen worse, paint wise, but not a lot worse. Somewhat annoys me that someone would buy what is clearly a good boat (Aust Reg Ship so she's been around I think) and just get plain shabby like that.

I'm prepared to go a little higher if necessary, but I won't pay the original asking price, I don't think the neglect of the exterior and such deserves it.

Broker sounded quite disappointed by the offer. Naturally he was saying that the below decks would sell her and to some degree he's right, but she is pretty tatty topside and below the waterline is probably even tattier.

photo gallery popup with enquiry

If I can't get her at what I consider she's worth, I'll reluctantly let it go and keep looking. I don't want to overcapitalise on a ferro boat that can't be insured so we've not set our hearts on this one. But she does look nice once you look past the tatty paint (or lack thereof) I think there's a good boat there - she just doesn't look that good right now.

AussieGeoff

[AussieGeoff]

Ok, well, they knocked back my first offer, but came back with one of their own. $2k below the original list price, so we have agreed to it, subject to survey etc. We're heading over there in a week or two to pick her up.

The present owner has been living aboard on a mooring in Pittwater for 10 years, so my understanding of the state of the boat is pretty much right.
I did find that she was slipped two years ago and the antifouling is still present, but she has a lot of growth at the waterline.

The broker tells me that the rigging is sound so we might not need to do anything with that just yet. First job will be to get the motor going, which means pulling the starter motor.

Is it just me or do there seem to be a lot of starter motor failures in these? I seem to see a lot of Yanmars with 'needs starter motor'.
What goes wrong? Brushes? Bushes? Both are a fairly simple repair, not sure why the whole starter needs to be replaced.

Oh, the reason for sale? His tender got pinched from the mooring, so he decided to swallow the anchor. The broker has promised me a tender to replace it as part of the deal.

Now we're getting organised for the trip to fetch her home. That will be something of an adventure. Bought a $150 car today. Got it part way home and it stopped. No fuel at the injector rail. The tank had a hole in it (which I fixed before we took it) but it was dry, so putting fuel in probably flushed some crap out of the tank and blocked the filter. The electric fuel pump runs, but no fuel at the engine. So we'll sort it out tomorrow and get it home.
Probably need to purge the injectors now. It's an 85 Holden Camira, automatic and other than the fuel issue, seems to drive quite well. A bit tacky, but it's a one way trip. We drive her over, use her as a runabout while we get ready to ferry the boat home and flog her on ebay or gumtree or even to a wrecker before we go. Cheaper than flying over and paying cabs or hire cars.

There's a deposit agreement, so if we discover the boat is unsound on inspection, we can knock it back, recover our deposit and walk away.

I've had extensive discussions with the broker and it's unlikely there will be any surprises, he's had a very good look over the boat (spent a day aboard) and hasn't tried to hide the issues that exist.

While I have your attention, does anyone in Oz know what happens to superseded/replaced radars? There seem to be no s/h ones around in Oz.
They must go somewhere, anyone know where? I'd like a radar but not interested in paying new prices - age is not a factor, as long as it works or is fixable. But it has to be cheap. If you have one or know of one, I'd be pleased to hear from you.

AussieGeoff

[Wotname]

Congratulations on your "new" boat purchase and I hope it all goes well. I admire your enthusiasm and I suspect you will find a couple of surprises along the way.

As to the Yanmar starter motor; unless someone quite knowledgeable have proven the unit faulty, I would be more inclined to be suspicious of the wiring first.

The photos indicate a general lack of preventative maintenance and given its age, there is a good chance that there is very few volts getting to the starter motor solenoid (assuming the battery is OK). Try looking there first. You should be able to hear if the solenoid is working.

Again, good luck and enjoy your new adventure.

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Congratulations on your "new" boat purchase and I hope it all goes well. I admire your enthusiasm and I suspect you will find a couple of surprises along the way.

Only a couple? Bound to be plenty. It's not perfect by a long stretch but we can make it that way.

Originally Posted by Wotname

As to the Yanmar starter motor; unless someone quite knowledgeable have proven the unit faulty, I would be more inclined to be suspicious of the wiring first.

The broker suggested it might be the solenoid and I also had concerns about the battery or wiring. I'm a techy from way back so if it's electrical I'll fix it. Not averse to fitting brushes etc either.

Originally Posted by Wotname

The photos indicate a general lack of preventative maintenance and given its age, there is a good chance that there is very few volts getting to the starter motor solenoid (assuming the battery is OK). Try looking there first. You should be able to hear if the solenoid is working.

Yes. The owner had manufactured a hand crank and the broker was able to establish the motor is not siezed by using that, but he couldn't start it (which didn't greatly surprise me). He also thought the motor was ok, just needs the starter sorted out. We're taking a genset so we can charge the system properly before we investigate. I can fix most things that ever worked so it's not a major concern unless there is something else wrong. The owner hasn't used the motor for a couple of years, but it was running fine last time it was used, so I suspect it's nothing too major.
I also had thoughts about the battery, there doesn't appear to be a solar charger so I'm not sure how he was running lighting etc once he moved to the mooring, he had shore power at the marina (there is a 240v CFL visible in one of the pics) and there are power boards everywhere according to the broker). There's a fridge and a washing machine(!) so he clearly had mains power for some time. Part of the upgrade strategy will be to build a decent battery bank and add solar/wind chargers. If (as I suspect) he was running the engine to keep his battery up, that would mean a lot of start cycles, which would be hard on the starter electrics at the best of times, if the battery was down when he tried to start it, things would be pulling more current to try and work on a battery that was down, which could lead to the solenoid popping.

I'm going to pull the engine out on general principles for a clean, paint and full service once we get it home, for now I'll settle for proving it runs properly and starts reliably. Much easier to pull it out and put it on a bench at home than mess with it in the boat. I can do diesel, I used to own a Tata ute, tempermental b...... of a thing that was.

It's an 18hp Yanmar which would make it a 2GM variant. Simple animals.

Originally Posted by Wotname

Again, good luck and enjoy your new adventure.

Thank you, the broker tells me he has spent a lot of money on some items but not others. It needed a shaft realignment a couple years ago, which was done. I suspect this was when he moved from the marina to the mooring on Pittwater and I don't think it's moved from that spot since.

Apparently she's been around (it's an Aus Registered Ship) but the owner prior to this one (he bought it in 97) was when it did most of the travelling around.

We'll get the major aspects sorted before we bring it home, but the cost of doing many things (mooring, slippage etc) here is a fraction of the cost in Sydney so I won't be doing anything major to it there unless it's a safety concern. Here all things are possible (and cheaper).

However it has to be good for one fairly long trip first. It's around 1700nm from Pittwater to home, so I want to be sure the four of us and the boat are up to speed before we head south. I'm guessing we'll average about 5 knots, so the best part of two weeks to get home tracking coastal at around 3 miles out. I don't want to be too far offshore if the weather turns bad, I want the option to run for harbour in case of any problems.

AussieGeoff

[Wotname]

Mate, it sounds like you have got it all sorted (well as far possible) and with your stated Mr Fixit skills, I am sure you will rise to the challenge. Again, I wish you every success.

[Boracay]

For your survey I'd suggest getting a list of surveyors from an insurance company (Club Marine?) and calling them up and asking if they'll look at ferro.

If they are OK then I'd also suggest getting them to split the survey into several parts.

The Insurance Survey could be a simple multi page list of boxes the insurance companies want ticked. One company that I spoke with wanted a comment against each tick (or cross). Its good to have this as it may answer some of the insurance questions if you need to have it done again in 5 years.

Another separate section could deal with issues that need to be addressed before taking the boat to SA.

Another section again could be the valuation. Some insurance companies will want this.

And another section again could deal with the work, time and cost in getting the boat into first class condition.

This may seem a bit strange at the moment when all you want to know is if you should buy the boat, but in the future it could be nice to keep an insurance company happy without having to comply with future fashions or trends, and to have a guide to what on the boat needs to be fixed. Sort of like having separate roadworthy certificate and test report on a car that you might buy.

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by Boracay

For your survey I'd suggest getting a list of surveyors from an insurance company (Club Marine?) and calling them up and asking if they'll look at ferro.

So far, all the insurers I've spoken to are simply not interested in insuring a ferro boat. Full stop. Period. At this time, it's highly unlikely I will be able to insure it. If that's the case, I will probably forego an official survey as it will be to no advantage and consume on the order of $1000-$1500 that would be better spent on repairs or safety gear. That's more than 10% of the price of the boat. I will only spend that sort of money if there is some definite indication it will be insurable and the premium won't be 20% of the value of the boat or something equally outrageous.

Club Marine do not insure ferro. Period. I asked. I have a couple of insurance brokers looking but they are not hopeful. I may be able to do better if I can determine who/how she was built, so far, all that's known is that it's believed to have been built in Port Lincoln in 73/74 but not by who or if it was a backyard job or a boatbuilder or what. I'm trying to trace previous owners/history.

She's on the Register as 'Aussie Blue' but is currently registered in NSW as 'Free Neasy' which is technically incorrect as one of the requirements of being a registered Australian Ship is that it is always known by that name, so we are going to have to do an official renaming for the Register or have her revert to her Registered name (that's what we plan as we have to do a new registration in SA anyway.)

If there's anyone here in Cruisers that knows the boat or her history I'd be pleased to hear from them. The present owner bought her in 97 and it appears she did quite a bit of cruising prior to that and probably little or none since.

We drive old cars so we only have 3rd Party Property Damage on them for similar reasons.

Yes, if the boat sinks, I lose everything, but it seems likely I can't avoid that possibility as no insurer to date will even consider covering a ferro bottom. I knew this when I started looking at ferro boats and accept it in return for getting a 35' boat at a 20' price.

Originally Posted by Boracay

If they are OK then I'd also suggest getting them to split the survey into several parts.

The Insurance Survey could be a simple multi page list of boxes the insurance companies want ticked. One company that I spoke with wanted a comment against each tick (or cross). Its good to have this as it may answer some of the insurance questions if you need to have it done again in 5 years.

Another separate section could deal with issues that need to be addressed before taking the boat to SA.

Another section again could be the valuation. Some insurance companies will want this.

And another section again could deal with the work, time and cost in getting the boat into first class condition.

This may seem a bit strange at the moment when all you want to know is if you should buy the boat, but in the future it could be nice to keep an insurance company happy without having to comply with future fashions or trends, and to have a guide to what on the boat needs to be fixed. Sort of like having separate roadworthy certificate and test report on a car that you might buy.

I understand what you mean. In an ideal world, probably reasonable, but I can get an 'unofficial' survey done which will tell me all I need to know at a fraction of the cost.

SA is one of the few states that don't have/need/want roadworthy certificates for private vehicles BTW. I've never had any sort of inspection done on any car I have bought and never regretted it.
Obviously a car and a boat are completely different scenarios but I'm sure you see my point. I have to make sure my money is well spent and at this point, an official survey (assuming I can find a surveyor that actually knows and understands ferro hulls - this can be difficult -) is not going to tell me anything I cannot establish by far less expensive means and will gain me nothing in terms of insurability. Surveys (as I understand it) are so much per foot and the cost of getting the boat out of the water, on the hard long enough for the survey and back in the water in its present location may well be as much or more than the cost of the survey.

My primary concern is if the vessel is sound and seaworthy enough for the trip home. After that, it's more a question of what upgrades/repairs/refits etc we wwant to do over the next year or so.

The situation here is that I can slip it for $165 and have use of the lockup pen for a week at a time for that price. (provided I have a mooring or berth at the wharf/jetty ($300 a year) It's roughly double that if I don't have a mooring or berth. That includes use of council owned vehicles/slipping trailer etc to get it in and out of the water. If I need more than a week it's around $50 a day I think.

Council don't want to know/don't care if the boat is insured or not.

I'm not sure of the exact costs in Sydney/Pittwater but I understand it would be some multiples of those figures.

As I said at the outset, I have some money and a lot of time, not a lot of money and some time. I can spend a week pressure cleaning, scraping and inspecting then sealing/antifouling as required.

I do appreciate your advice and I will consider everything you have said.


AussieGeoff

[Boracay]

If the Queenslander passes survey then I would recommend only coastal cruising with short hops to bring it to SA.

Out of Sydney you really need a 3 day weather window (for me that's wind below 15 knots and a slight swell) before going anywhere.

Don't forget your EPIRB, PFD's with harness and VHF radio.

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by Boracay

If the Queenslander passes survey then I would recommend only coastal cruising with short hops to bring it to SA.

Exactly the plan. We'll be staying within 5nm of the coast.

Originally Posted by Boracay

Out of Sydney you really need a 3 day weather window (for me that's wind below 15 knots and a slight swell) before going anywhere.

Sounds about right. I remember it well. (Lived there for some years)

Originally Posted by Boracay

Don't forget your EPIRB, PFD's with harness and VHF radio.

VHF (plus 2 handheld Motorola VHF's)
27 Mhz Marine.
HF if I can find one in time.
UHF CB too.

EPIRB we need to get. PFDs, lifelines etc are aboard already.

I'm ex ATC and ex pilot, so I speak Met. It even looks like turning iffy and I head for sheltered water. Pilots are even more careful about wx than boaties.

AussieGeoff

[Boracay]

And also check that the fuel tanks are clean, change the engine and transmission oil and change all filters.

Check transmission forward/reverse linkages.

Check the raw water strainer, hoses etc. and change the impeller.

Make sure the engine is getting lots of nice cool air.

Don't breath on the engine the wrong way!