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Old 28-01-2012, 07:03   #46
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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Originally Posted by impi View Post
... the guy with the least money ...

OR.... the anchor company. Maybe the OP forgot to mention the fero boat had a Rocna and it bent because it was made of cheep Chinese steel....

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Old 28-01-2012, 07:32   #47
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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Originally Posted by dancamp009 View Post
Neither boat had any insurance what-so-ever. Both boats are old and can't even buy comprehensive insurance if they could afford it.................

...............Wooden boat owner believes he has $20,000 in damage.
If that is $20k via a Boatyard probably a third of that DIY.

Although I appreciate that the Wooden boat is uninsured, odds are that if it is in a condition that insurance is unobtainable, then could well be (likely to?) have been written off by any insurance company as repairs exceed the value.....no idea how that would pan out in court.

My take is that the Ferro Owner is liable - but turning that into cash is another thing. Hell, may even need to prove his vessel did the damage - "damage done already" .

IMO nothing wrong with self insuring - but got to be able to suck up the downside.
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Old 28-01-2012, 07:47   #48
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
This is a serious issue, so I checked with my insurance company. They said they do not want me on my boat at anchor in a storm if I can get off safely, and that if my boat stays put and another one breaks loose and hits my boat, they would expect the other insurance company to pay. They value human safety over the boat.

In addition, when questioned further, they said that hauling up anchor by oneself in a storm, with other boats around, would not be prudent use of the boat. They wouldn't recommend bringing another person aboard to perform a potentially dangerous action (pulling up anchor in a crowded anchorage in a storm), either, since they would be liable for any injuries to that person.

You do what your insurance company -- or you -- thinks is right, but I would not be out in a storm trying to move my boat under the circumstances described. If there were WARNING of a storm and there were time, I would move it to a more sheltered location, because I've seen what can happen in a storm, including a boat collision. In that case (the collision), the boat that broke free was liable for the damages to the boat that remained anchored.

My insurance company also said I was not required to maintain a watch on an anchored boat, but that if my boat broke loose and damaged some other boat, I would be liable. They did say that I must follow regulations such as maintaining an adequate anchor light. They did say that they would expect me to check the boat periodically to make sure it remained securely anchored, rode in good shape, etc., and that my rates would go up if I permanently left my protected marina and moved my boat to open water and not in a true mooring field.

Last spring we had eight boats break loose and run aground in just one part of Boca Ciega Bay. (There were no collisions in that storm). However, the three boats that had really good moorings in designed by a marine engineer were all fine. It is up to each boat owner to keep his or her boat secure.
Just who is the owner / master / skipper / person in charge of this vessel, you or the insurance company.

IMveryHO, sailing is somewhat risky so be prepared to take some risk and call the shots.
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Old 28-01-2012, 09:03   #49
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Re: Who is responsible for anchor dragging

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Originally Posted by dancamp009 View Post
The dragging boat was about 55' cement hull. The damaged boat was about 47' wood hull. Extensive damage was done. The dragging boat was a live-aboard vessel captained by an elder man who has health problems and needed help with his anchoring.
My heart goes out to the elderly live-aboard on the cement hulled boat, who is experiencing health problems. What a tragic set of circumstances.

Hopefully all of us will enjoy the good fortune of being better prepared to enjoy our advancing years.
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Old 28-01-2012, 09:14   #50
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

If wood boat has insurance thier insurance company will try to collect from all parties through subrigation. At least that is how it is in Michigan. If wood boat has no insurance it looks bleek. Likely have to sue the boat owner, maybe they will be anchoring a cement boat.
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Old 28-01-2012, 09:34   #51
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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Originally Posted by s/v 'Faith' View Post
OR.... the anchor company. Maybe the OP forgot to mention the fero boat had a Rocna and it bent because it was made of cheep Chinese steel....

Care to share the popcorn

Don't how this would settle out, but asked son-in-law who was big man in major insurance co, and he betted that lawyers fees would exceed value of both boats, and assets of marine co.
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Old 28-01-2012, 20:48   #52
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
.....My insurance company also said I was not required to maintain a watch on an anchored boat....,,
COLREGS

Look-out
Every vessel must at all times keep a proper look-out by sight (day shape or lights by eyes or visual aids), hearing (sound signal or Marine VHF radio) and all available means (e.g. Radar, ARPA, AIS, GMDSS...) in order to make a full assessment of the situation and risk of collision.
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Old 29-01-2012, 07:57   #53
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

I'm feeling for the old guy in this. Unable to set anchor himself to his satisfaction, he did the decent thing and paid professionals to do it for him. As a Skipper he assessed the risks, and managed them in what he thought was the best way.

Personally, I feel the company should assume liability, and shame on them if they don't.
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Old 29-01-2012, 08:36   #54
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

If the "salvage" company are like any around here you have a guy who is broke other than a diving rig and a small skiff.... and likely zero insurance.

IF guaranteeing assignment of liability was as simple as hiring someone to set your anchor, there would be a HUGE demand for that service.... it is simply not the case.

In the FL Keys, there are thousands of live-aboards who are not financially capable to be a responsible boat owner; many just live on a boat doing nothing in the way of maintenance until they are untenable, then like a hermit crab, move on to the next "home", leaving the original as a derelict. These people are essentially floating homeless people who would be living under a bridge if they were outside the Keys.

Not saying of course that the fero boat owner was indigent, as an indigent would not have hired a diver at all, but given the fact he did not have liability insurance, leads me to believe he was at the least irresponsible.... either out of cheapness, or arrogance.

The woodie owner bears equal blame for not insuring his vessel. Unfortunately, the government will bear the cost of removing the wood hull if she sinks. In short: the rest of us loose..... again!
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Old 29-01-2012, 08:57   #55
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Most people fail to realize that when they travel to a different country that they are an alien. The laws of their home country nolonger apply. The host country seldom mediates property damage between two aliens, and if the mediation envolves an alien and a citizen then the rules are adjusted.

If we don't know more details ie: country and nationalities then we have no basis for judgement.
Umm, sorry, but this is entirely false. An accident between two foreigners which occurs on the territory of State X is nearly always decided by the courts of State X and according to State X's laws. There are a very few exceptions.

As to the rules being "adjusted" when one foreigner and one native is involved, I'll never forget the first day of Introductory International Law, when I was in law school a million years ago - an American was standing at a red light in Taiwan, minding his own business, when a drunk Taiwanese plowed into the back of his car, totaling both cars. The irate Yank sued, but the Taiwanese court found the American 100% responsible for all of the damages, on the basis that the accident would not have occurred, if the foreigner had not been in Taiwan to begin with . . .

So, ok, the rules are sometimes "adjusted", but they're not supposed to be
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Old 29-01-2012, 09:13   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancamp009
Neither boat had any insurance what-so-ever. Both boats are old and can't even buy comprehensive insurance if they could afford it. The ferro owner was aboard when it drug into the wooden boat, but didn't correct the situation before major damage occurred. Wooden boat owner, unfortunately, was not aboard that night, though he usually is.
It looks like he has to file a police report and then present his case to a lawyer if he wants to sue for maximum damages or use small claims court (without a lawyer) for $2500 or less. Wooden boat owner believes he has $20,000 in damage. I suggested he get estimates and then decide what road to take, but file his police reports immediately.
Thanks for all the help.
You're on the right track. Your friend will need PROOF of what the damages are, and who did it. A police report, witnesses, photographs, everything he can get. Delay in collecting these can make it impossible.

In my opinion, he should sue if the ferro guy is unwilling to take responsibility. He might not win, because a judge might well find that there was no negligence, in view of the fact that his anchor was set by a pro. But he should sue the dive company too. I agree with those who say you shouldn't always try to find someone else to pay for your misfortunes, but here is a case where the wooden boat guy really shouldn't be stuck with the bill. And the ferro guy really should have had at least liability insurance, if he was not ready to pay himself for damage he causes. He would not have been allowed to get behind the wheel of a one-ton car without liability insurance, and here a 20 ton boat? It's ridiculous.
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Old 29-01-2012, 09:33   #57
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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You're on the right track. Your friend will need PROOF of what the damages are, and who did it. A police report, witnesses, photographs, everything he can get. Delay in collecting these can make it impossible.

In my opinion, he should sue if the ferro guy is unwilling to take responsibility. He might not win, because a judge might well find that there was no negligence, in view of the fact that his anchor was set by a pro. But he should sue the dive company too. I agree with those who say you shouldn't always try to find someone else to pay for your misfortunes, but here is a case where the wooden boat guy really shouldn't be stuck with the bill. And the ferro guy really should have had at least liability insurance, if he was not ready to pay himself for damage he causes. He would not have been allowed to get behind the wheel of a one-ton car without liability insurance, and here a 20 ton boat? It's ridiculous.
But commonplace
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Old 31-01-2012, 10:06   #58
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

For the owner of the boat that dragged to be held responsible, you'd have to prove that he was negligent. Since he hired a professional company to set the anchor, I expect that a maritime court would find him not guilty. The diving salvage company is a different story- regardless of whether the owner had insurance, they could be held liable, since they were hired to secure the boat and their work failed to perform as (presumaby) advertised. But considering the costs of litigation with maritime lawyers....
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Old 31-01-2012, 10:18   #59
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

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If my boat hits your boat and I was at fault, then I am responsible for your repairs, period. You do not care whether I choose to go after whoever anchored my boat badly. that is not your problem.

My insurance company will NOT want to pay if someone else is liable. In addition, for car insurance, if they have to pay because the car that hit me was uninsured, my insurance will still go up. My insurance company does not want to pay for someone else's financial responsibility.

That's how insurance works. They insuring YOU. They can't make a risk judgment regarding that ferrio-cement boat anchored near you.

My insurance should not protect other boat owners, nor do I want it to. My premiums would go up.

Probably (but I don't know for sure) exceptions would be made in the case of a hurricane, which can turn anchorages and marinas into the equivalent of a 37-car pile up on a freeway. In such cases it can be very hard to determine who has how much liability for the accident.
Everything you have written makes sense.

However, I do have a question. How common is "Uninsured boater" insurance? It is a really good bet that the owner of the ferro boat has nothing to go after so while suing the guy may be emotionally satisfying, it is unlikely that it will recover enough money to pay for the wooden boat. Perhaps if the ferro guy goes after the diver's company for negligence there will be some money but I wouldn't count on it.

All this said, how can the responsible boat owner protect him/herself from this sort of situation? Is there some add on so that if your boat gets harmed by a boat without insurance, you are covered?
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Old 31-01-2012, 10:25   #60
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Re: Who is Responsible for Anchor Dragging

i say--him for dragging, and YOU, for allowing the boat to hit yours. is why the gods made proper anchor watch. operative word--WATCH
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