Skip's Logs - a Referendum

[GordMay]

Skip:
Sean QUIT because he thought (wrongfuly) that I had shown him great disrespect. He was a Moderator.
Read any one of your posts, to see what I mean by line formatting.

[fishwife]

In the nicest possible way, post what you like as long as it's within the rules. Your blog doesn't interest me, it's too wordy and ego-centric, but others will no doubt disagree.

P.

[susan kennedy]

Originally Posted by fishwife

In the nicest possible way, post what you like as long as it's within the rules. Your blog doesn't interest me, it's too wordy and ego-centric, but others will no doubt disagree.

P.

you feel this is a "nicest possible" comment? why the hostility?

[Starbuck]

Your posts to this forum seem out of place for one reason, I think, because no one else that I know of uses the forum in this way. I click on blog links that are part of members' electronic signatures, and when I go to their personal blogs, I expect to enter their worlds. A forum is a much more "public" place, so the expectation isn't for deeply personal, detailed content.

I checked the links provided with your signature. You are using sites designed for groups posting questions to each other, short topics, etc., the same M/O as here. The result is the feeling that you are putting yourself at the center of a discussion board that is designed to be a place where contributions come from a group of like-minded people with a common interest (hence the name Yahoo Group, Google Group, etc.). The unintended statement of using those tools in that way is that you expect you, or at least, your posts, to be the the common interest. That's why you're getting "self-centered" perceptions in your feedback. The perception is that you are attempting to make yourself the nucleus of the atom, instead of being an electron orbiting the nucleus of a sailing atom, and that comes across as egotistic.

Your writing style is very verbose, rambling, and introspective/subjective. Mine, much of the time, is too. That's fine for a personal blog, but seems out of place in a questions-and-answers & quasi-chatroom place like this one. Typically, that's not why people come here. And yeah, Gord is right: with your style, using the Return/Enter key to break apart those huge iceberg paragraphs would make more approachable reading. Long, rambling, minutia-filled paragraphs went out with Dickens.

Your "281 posts" (as of 30 June '10) ticker notwithstanding, you rarely post to chime in on an existing thread, so no one has much of a thumbnail of who you are (Gord, the courteous, walking encyclopedia/search engine; Mark, the lovable smart-ass, David Old Jersey, the slightly naughty, always witty, can't hide his intelligence no matter how hard he tries bachelor vagabond, and dozens of others we know by feel and experience (Lord knows what pigeon-hole I've been stuffed into!)). Everyone who logs on even occasionally is known in some way, by way of familiarity. Because there are very few posts in which you are part of a larger conversation (I've come to know you more in this thread, as a real human being, than in the total of the last three years), your log entries seem to appear absent a context, and to be a huge jump to the personal right out of the gate, like the guy on the bus who says hello, then tells you about his infection and what the doctor prescribed, and that the burning and constant itching is much less now, so he doesn't have to walk bow-legged anymore. If you were to be a more familiar face around here, we'd feel much more comfortable with the deep stuff, and actually interested in reading more about a guy we know. As it is, these longish missives often seem out-of-the-blue, as sincere, informative, and insightful as they may be in their own right. It's a community, and you have to participate in the give-and-take to be a part of it.

I understand that your limited access to the Internet determines the kind of web tools/products you use. But you must be aware that the way you do it is outside what has become standard practice in the last few years. You're the guy mailing his Christmas "what's been happening in our life" letter (is this a cultural phenomenon anywhere outside the US?). I hate those things for the same reason as above: I don't really have the kinds of relationships with mere business acquaintances that hearing about their dog's vaccinations, or how the oldest daughter is doing in college, means anything to me. I'll wager I wasn't the only one to have a very strong negative first reaction to your "I'm stuck and need assistance of any kind" posts a while back. It wasn't lack of sincerity, but lack of previous relationship, that made it off-putting to many.

That being said, there is a forum here that includes "logs" in its description, so technically, you're not posting in the wrong place. But it must say something about the culture & etiquette of the web, and of this forum, that almost no one uses it, preferring their own dedicated blogs where others come to them. That's just where people expect to find that sort of thing.

Okay, now by way of encouragement, I'd say come hang out with us more often, bump that 300 posts up, and let us get to know you, shift your logs to a blog, and your obviously great experience, insight, introspection and opinion will bring others to you. I love the self-deprecating tone of your logs: it makes you very human, and reminds me of the way Eric Hiscock wrote, with an eye to his own foibles, stupidity, and mistakes. It's just that I want to go to them when I'm in the mood to read them.

Looking forward to getting to know you,
Jeff

[skipgundlach]

Hiya, Starbuck, and assembled,

Leaving your missive out for bandwidth (I'm very lucky at the moment to be able to see this), just a couple of responses.

I realize I'm out of the mainstream. After all, I'm on a boat in the middle of some ocean or bay or banks; mainstreamers, regardless of the makeup of internet groups (e.g. Cruising and Sailing forum by label). Therefore I don't have the luxury of easy interaction.

However, if you'd go to the archives of rec.boats.cruising, a usenet list which comes over email channels, you'd see I'm pretty active there. Pulling down text is vastly faster, thus, allowing me the opportunity to not only get all the posts there in one swat, it allows me to respond to any and all I care to participate in, or originate, while offline, putting all that back up (or pulling down) in less time than it takes to open a web page, let alone move through all the posts I might like to participate in.

And, you're quite correct that I've not done much of that here (or, for that matter, on Seven Seas Cruising Association's forums, a place where I'm very much in the mainstream), for the above reason.

OTOH, where I ask a question (or, for that matter, if folks were to comment on my originated threads), I eventually get to them, even if much later than they appear, when I have good access.

I have other responses to attend to, but for now, given that it's taken me a half hour to get to this point, I'm going to go play Mexican Train with some friends on another boat. I hope to come back again sometime soon for more action :{))

L8R

Skip and crew

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by Starbuck

(Clip)

That being said, there is a forum here that includes "logs" in its description, so technically, you're not posting in the wrong place. But it must say something about the culture & etiquette of the web, and of this forum, that almost no one uses it, preferring their own dedicated blogs where others come to them. That's just where people expect to find that sort of thing.

Okay, now by way of encouragement, I'd say come hang out with us more often, bump that 300 posts up, and let us get to know you, shift your logs to a blog, and your obviously great experience, insight, introspection and opinion will bring others to you. I love the self-deprecating tone of your logs: it makes you very human, and reminds me of the way Eric Hiscock wrote, with an eye to his own foibles, stupidity, and mistakes. It's just that I want to go to them when I'm in the mood to read them.

Looking forward to getting to know you,
Jeff

Hi, Jeff, and thanks for the input. We're currently helping a cruising buddy
achieve internet (via our on-board router), so I've succumbed to the rare
instance of paying for the service - and thus have slightly better access.

I'd willingly - eagerly, even - participate here, if I could. In the rare
instances where I have both available time, and bandwidth, I do go
exploring - and when there's something I can contribute, pitch in - for
example, on battery, solar, wind, Honda Gensets, WiFi, and any other issues
I've directly dealt with and overcome difficulties or learned from. I get
notifications of any comments to stuff I've originated, or commented on in
other threads, but they come by email, and I follow them up as I'm able.

I can pull all of my emails in a very short period of time over Outlook
Express, or, in Vista and beyond, Windows Mail, or Thunderbird, Eudora or
any of the other mail clients, and reply to any and all, or originate new
mail, all offline, once they're pulled. When even marginal bandwidth is
availalble, those replies and new messages/posts/contributions can go up.

Before I got on the boat, in addition to my more-than-10-year presence on
rec.boats.cruising, there were perhaps another dozen such newsgroups I was
similarly very active in, as well as about a dozen Sailnet maill lists (but
I believe the archives thereof are no longer available, in case you wanted
to go check).. But my ability to continue on RBC is because it's through a
mail or news client, not web based.

A glimpse of reality on web-based stuff was last year when, in the Exuma
Park, we subscribed to the only game in town, the WiFi associated with the
park. Lydia used up the entirety of our first-day's (we had a three-day
contract so it didn't shut us down) 100MB's allotment in three hours of
Facebook. EVERYTHING web-based is intensely data-rich...

I'd love to do the same as I do on rec.boats.cruising here, and in a couple
of other forums. At that, you'll note that where there ARE comments or
questions, because I DO get those notifications, I eventually do come back
as an active participant.

For a slightly closer look at what's up, bandwidth being shared (if you read
my George Town logs, you have an appreciation of the challenges, even with
Batelco as the bandwidth supplier), over, here, ExumaWiFi, a satellite
service, here's what their website has to say on the log-in page:


The secret to happy surfing on a slow network?
1. Click on the link
2. Take a drink of your Kalik
3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 above until network appears to have blazing speed.

Heh. Usually we're a great deal slower than even that.

The world has changed. Everyone wishing to participate in web-based
activities (such as C+SF) not in my position (or those in my position - at
sea, full-time - who have multi-$K dedicated satellite systems - we almost
bought a boat which MIGHT [don't know the capabilities or realities of that
particular system, which we believe to be mostly TV oriented, and not
covering the areas we're in] have had that, but, since we didn't, we're not
about to put out the many thousands needed to implement one aboard, even if
we had a place for the dome. We do, however, see lots of BIG boats with
them, as we travel...) has easy access to full-time, always-on, broadband.

That I don't is the only reason I'm not annoying folks in most of the
subforums, rather than just one or two, here, and on very limited occasions
:{))

Meanwhile, I'm trying to find the link to the better, perhaps, site. It may
well be appropriate for the community purpose, better oriented to my usual.

In the meantime, I'm limited to what I have, which is very limited access.
Would that it were different...

L8R

Skip, squirming under paid WiFi with nearly a third of it gone already...

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by susan kennedy

you feel this is a "nicest possible" comment? why the hostility?

Not to worry, Susan. Just an opinion - which I value as much as any other contribution. My stuff isn't for everyone, just as, I'm sure, others' may be. Different strokes, and all that.

I gotta get offline before our entire 3 days is eaten up in the (errrggg) pay site we're on which, despite being more than twice as generous as the last time we paid for access, still gobbles bandwidth just by looking here...

L8R

Skip

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by FSMike

Skip -
In general -

All sorts of folks post all kinds of blogs. Very few of them post them on this forum. Food for thought.

As far as me personally, the only thing that pisses me off is that you're at Staniel and
I'm not. Have a Kalik for me.

Heh. Lydia's the one for the Kaliks - I have yet to learn to appreciate beer, sticking, in the rare times of alcohol, to rum concoctions. Frozen Nippers are nice, as are Goombay Smashes - and, I hate to piss you off even more, but I've had each at the originators of both libations :{))

OTOH, you're welcome to come sail, snorkel, dive, fish or whatever with us, if you need a fix...

L8R

Skip, heading to Marsh Harbour, where WiFi will return in abundance, the sites we used being 6, 8 or 12 miles away, over our islandtimepc.com's WiFi (no connection other than an insanely satisfied customer)

[colemj]

Skip,

You are missing the point many are making here. Lots of us are out cruising just like you. In the same places. Many in even more remote places. Most with less internet connection than you. And we have airmail/sailmail accounts if we wish to post updates to people. We contribute here when we do have the connection and time, and stay away for long periods of time otherwise.

None of us (NONE OF US - you should reflect on that statement and note some the contributors here - Evan Starzinger, Jack Tyler and a lot of other serious cruisers with more experience than most) are using bots to spam cruising/sailing/boat websites with long detailed accounts of our doings in lieu of a blog.

Most of us have blogs for the purpose of informing people of what is happening in our lives and update them when we can. If we choose, we notify others in these types of sites by either including a link in our signature lines or posting a short post that an update is available with a link to the blog. We understand that forums are not reservoirs for passive information dumps and use them for their intended purposes.

We INVITE people into our lives - not impose our lives on people. This is one of those common courtesies that often gets overlooked in the 24/7 anonymous web.

Your signature line(s) contain information on how to subscribe to your messages. 'Nuff done there - you are all set. No need to mobilize the bots. To do more is egocentric, and I think you might have a problem there...

Mark (please note the signature addition below)

[JusDreaming]

Just a quick note, as far as the different places with wifi. As you know, as we have met each other at many remote places/bonfires. So similar conditions exist.
Our blog gets updated when possible and when I feel like it . When I am out cruising, I don't really post anything here other than a possible question on how to fix something . Or a quick note saying "see you in a few months". And I figure if someone is interested in our travels, they can click on the link with our signatures. Most of the people here know if they have a question about Lagoon catamarans, or cruising the Bahamas, it might be awhile before they get a response here. So they generally send a PM or an e-mail which I do check more often.
Just a suggestion from someone who actually knows you, and is in similar situations!!!!!!!!!

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by colemj

Skip,

(clip)


None of us (NONE OF US - you should reflect on that statement and note some the contributors here - Evan Starzinger, Jack Tyler and a lot of other serious cruisers with more experience than most) are using bots to spam cruising/sailing/boat websites with long detailed accounts of our doings in lieu of a blog.

(clip)

Your signature line(s) contain information on how to subscribe to your messages. 'Nuff done there - you are all set. No need to mobilize the bots. To do more is egocentric, and I think you might have a problem there...

Mark (please note the signature addition below)

Hi, Mark,

Points (including the clips) taken.

Please note, however, that if I were utilizing bots, my posts would be real time, all the time, as, when I'm in VERY limited bandwidth, only my mailing list gets anything, as the web is simply unavailable to me in those cases.

And, in fact, as noted in some of my at-sea postings, those arrive through my son who posts them (to my log directly, not here or anywhere else).

The other places I occasionally appear are all done manually, one at a time, when I get to bandwidth.

And, as noted, if it's the common sentiment that I'm not wanted (in that fashion - I think I've said enough about why I can't be a regular visitor to the several forums I'd otherwise enjoy both reading, originating [as other threads stimulate my thought] and contributing to), as asked in the opener, not coming here would save me just one more step and some time.

I appreciate the several sentiments here WRT ego-centrism. Could be right. I'd THOUGHT I was sharing experiences that others might find useful in the short or long term future.

Certainly, I stored megabytes of information I got from RBC during my early days, preceding even looking for a boat, and, later, from the many mailing lists (usually boat manufacturer oriented, but lots of mechanical and location-specific ones, too, in the Sailnet mailing lists) - easily, just by saving the email-type, all-text stuff, or the link to something else, in some cases, contained within a text posting/mail-list item.

Because they don't come down in text format, getting web stuff into storage, when I see something useful to my immediate or perceived future needs, is not nearly as easy - or, perhaps, I'm just old enough not to know how to do that easily; kids likely could do it in their sleep.

So, presuming that those not already doing it, or, perhaps out there, but not having the location or activity experience that I write about, might find what I write useful, I put it in a couple of forums.

And, truth be known, I didn't know about ANY of these (this and the couple of others I visit) before our wreck. It's only because a fellow cruiser, one who came to see me on the hard in Key West while we waited for the insurance adjuster, told me of an ongoing argument here that I knew about this or others. My entire world had been usenet (newsgroups) and mailing lists.

So, it's entirely possible that I'm an anachronism in a web-based world. As noted in the beginning of all this, I'm quite content to be ridden out of town on a rail, if that's the consensus. I don't take offense - believe it or not, I listen :{))

So, I'm not attempting to put others' abilities to connect and be active here in any negative light - just noting that it's very difficult for me, which is why I'm not very active here.

If and when there is ever a utility for this/these forums (many forums within the C+SF umbrella) to reach me on a text based reader/sender, you'll find me all over it, albeit not necessarily all the time, due to limitations of when and where I can fetch/send them. So far, no forum of any sort I've asked the question has had an admin tell me how to make that happen - so, there we are...

So, as able, I'll keep checking in on this; I get an email notification of new posts, so at least I know when there's activity...

And, in the end, if my point #1, in the original, is the group's decision, I'll wave goodbye, happy to have been here. However, I'm still interested in #s 2 and 3 :{))

L8R

Skip

[paradix]

Hi Skip

If you really wanted this to be a referendum, rather than another talk-fest, you should have used the "poll" button when setting up the thread...

Regarding your original three questions, #2 is a technical one for the mods, and I personally have nothing to contribute on #3.

#1 comes in two parts to my mind:

#1A) are you breaking any rules by doing what you're doing?

and

#1B) would it be more constructive for you to be doing things a different way?

#1A is a question for the mods again, and they don't seem to mind. Everyone else has to the "IGNORE" function for threads and/or posters if they don't like them.

#1B has been very clearly answered here: many people are thinking that your posts seem to be better suited to a personal blog, which is very easy to set up. If you can post them here, you can post them on your own blog.

So, why not forget about replying to this thread for a second, and use the bandwidth to set up your own blog instead - I just tried it and it took me under a minute.

[Vasco]

I cruise six months a year in the same waters as Skip and many of us. My blog is in e-mail form, only to those who have asked for it. It is not difficult to get it out, once a month maybe twice if something unusual happens. I must say after all these years it gets more and more difficult to make up new lies. Connections are fairlly decent if you know the right spots and I even get to post here once or twice during the winter. But only serious questions or answers to other posters with the correct information.

[Bill Lee]

Hi Skip,
You did ask for a referendum. Most of the posts to this thread were 'neutralish' in nature. 4 were in favour of your continued conduct and 6 were against. I'm not sure if this represents a majority (over 500 people reviewed this thread). The majority of the opinions were NOT strong opinions one way or the other. So apparently, you're ticking off a small minority and the rest of us have opinions but we don't really care too much about it. I just wanted to sum up. Cheers,
Bill

[gettinthere]

you folks take yourselves WAY to seriously. I post a joke about all this and it gets wacked.

Lighten up fer pete's sake.

Skip
I like reading your posts, I think they are very informative. They are a bit wordy so I speed read thru parts of it.