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Old 27-03-2014, 06:58   #136
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

[QUOTE=letsgetsailing3;1503015]
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Originally Posted by cburger View Post

They don't seem to fall of other boats too much, either. In the big scheme of things, your keel falling off should be a small concern if you got the boat surveyed and don't rest the boat on the ground too often.
Actually many cases of keels and rudders coming off the fin and spade rudder set. I don't want to start naming brand names, but when some here make inane "Blanket" statements like "Full keels are a throwback to wooden construction methods rather then any inherent benefit" figured it was time to chime in with my inane 2 cents.

I have sailed many different boats of varying designs over the years and as I like to sail usually enjoyed myself on them all. That being said as I live aboard full time and eventually "Some day" plan to go out there somewhere I chose the particular boat I have now for a number of reasons, one of them being is the inherent toughness of the design and to my mind when you remove 75% of the underbody and have unprotected critical items like the keel and rudder hanging down unprotected sooner or later something "May" happen. I have hard grounded full keelers on underwater stone ledges, (That boat came away without a scratch) and have hit submerged telephone poles on the Hudson and watched in amazement as the pole bounced along under the keelson and popped up behind us. I would not want to have tried that with a fin keeler. I rode out hurricane Sandy in a slip on the Hudson in an area that was devastated, not a scratch on my "Old" design that has no place in the modern world, a friends fin keeler under the same circumstances lost his rudder, and still hasn't had it made.
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Old 27-03-2014, 07:00   #137
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

This is a very interesting thread. My question-- be useful to the original poster - does anyone have opinions of the Passport 40? Seems like a very up nice compromise-- great build quality but not too heavy. I have been on one and was impressed. I Know some captains and racing sailors who chose this as their cruising boat. I'm curious if anyone here has good experiences with it or useful opinions. Also similarly any opinions about caliber yachts, similarly sized 30-40?

If I had a dream situation such as time in retirement, enough $$ to do this properly, I would dream of the passport 40.
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Old 27-03-2014, 07:09   #138
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

Why is there so much type space being spent trying to convince people with a different type of boat that their boat is "wrong"?? (Or perhaps leading the OP to pass up the deal of a lifetime, or perfect boat within his budget, because of all the chatter about how that particular kind of boat is somehow unsuitable.) I can certainly see being in love with and enthusiastic about the boat you happen to sail, but must that necessarily lead to trying to convince the world that any other boat design is wrong?

Those old boat designs may have come about as a necessity because of boat construction methods, but they were refined over how many hundreds of years?? And say what you might, to the eye they are about as close as you can come to a fully functioning piece of fine art. And they have been successfully carrying sailors all over the world for many years. Some people don't need the interior volume of a VFW hall and are content in small cozy spaces. The newer boat designs have the advantages of all the advances in technology and design, modern construction methods, less wood maintenance and large airy spaces. They are also carrying people safely over the oceans in all areas of the world.

I love boats of all designs and we have owned both kinds. Neither are absolutely perfect in every situation. Each type excels in some regards and not so much in others, but life is full of compromises and so are boats.

I remember reading once that the best boat to go cruising in is the one you have, or the one that you can obtain and still have the resources left to finance the adventure. It's been said several times, but I really believe that the bottom line of it is, as long as it is a well designed, well built, properly maintained and equipped boat and you have the necessary skills to sail it properly in all conditions, either type of design can make a perfectly wonderful cruising boat. The question becomes which one meets more of the criteria that is important to YOU.

The Pardeys have enjoyed 40+ years on their traditional, heavy, full keel, wooden cutter, and there are hundreds like them from generations past, and still today, sailing those same kinds of boats and living lives of freedom and adventure that most of us can only dream of. The Goodlanders have enjoyed just as many on their fin keeled sloop (that they got by paying $3000 for the salvage rights and have sailed over 170,000 miles). And there are many more like them out there plying the waves in boats as small as Cal 20's. They experienced the life, loved the life, made it safely to the anchorage and many of them are still going. You would probably have a difficult time convincing any of them, or any one else in either camp who is actually living the life, that somehow their experience and their accomplishment is something "less" because of their particular choice of boat. Most of the time we don't buy a boat because we crunched all the wave tank numbers and determined the perfect hull. We buy a boat because it was in the right place at the right time for the right price, perfect or not.

The OP has gotten a lot of good advice here, and also a lot of rhetoric. But I think that for most of us who have to figure out how to boat within a limited budget it always comes down to figuring out what is non-negotiable on our list, what we can compromise on, assessing our purpose and skills, and then getting what we can afford that meets as much of the criteria as possible. Unless money is no object generally any other approach will just keep us in port.
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Old 27-03-2014, 07:38   #139
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by oldragbaggers View Post
Why is there so much type space being spent trying to convince people with a different type of boat that their boat is "wrong"?? (Or perhaps leading the OP to pass up the deal of a lifetime, or perfect boat within his budget, because of all the chatter about how that particular kind of boat is somehow unsuitable.) I can certainly see being in love with and enthusiastic about the boat you happen to sail, but must that necessarily lead to trying to convince the world that any other boat design is wrong?

Those old boat designs may have come about as a necessity because of boat construction methods, but they were refined over how many hundreds of years?? And say what you might, to the eye they are about as close as you can come to a fully functioning piece of fine art. And they have been successfully carrying sailors all over the world for many years. Some people don't need the interior volume of a VFW hall and are content in small cozy spaces. The newer boat designs have the advantages of all the advances in technology and design, modern construction methods, less wood maintenance and large airy spaces. They are also carrying people safely over the oceans in all areas of the world.

I love boats of all designs and we have owned both kinds. Neither are absolutely perfect in every situation. Each type excels in some regards and not so much in others, but life is full of compromises and so are boats.

I remember reading once that the best boat to go cruising in is the one you have, or the one that you can obtain and still have the resources left to finance the adventure. It's been said several times, but I really believe that the bottom line of it is, as long as it is a well designed, well built, properly maintained and equipped boat and you have the necessary skills to sail it properly in all conditions, either type of design can make a perfectly wonderful cruising boat. The question becomes which one meets more of the criteria that is important to YOU.

The Pardeys have enjoyed 40+ years on their traditional, heavy, full keel, wooden cutter, and there are hundreds like them from generations past, and still today, sailing those same kinds of boats and living lives of freedom and adventure that most of us can only dream of. The Goodlanders have enjoyed just as many on their fin keeled sloop (that they got by paying $3000 for the salvage rights and have sailed over 170,000 miles). And there are many more like them out there plying the waves in boats as small as Cal 20's. They experienced the life, loved the life, made it safely to the anchorage and many of them are still going. You would probably have a difficult time convincing any of them, or any one else in either camp who is actually living the life, that somehow their experience and their accomplishment is something "less" because of their particular choice of boat. Most of the time we don't buy a boat because we crunched all the wave tank numbers and determined the perfect hull. We buy a boat because it was in the right place at the right time for the right price, perfect or not.

The OP has gotten a lot of good advice here, and also a lot of rhetoric. But I think that for most of us who have to figure out how to boat within a limited budget it always comes down to figuring out what is non-negotiable on our list, what we can compromise on, assessing our purpose and skills, and then getting what we can afford that meets as much of the criteria as possible. Unless money is no object generally any other approach will just keep us in port.
Lovely post.
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Old 27-03-2014, 08:04   #140
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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G'Day all,

There are factors beyond sheer speed that enter into the realities of cruising. Light air performance is frequently ignored in these discussions, and in our ~140,000 miles of cruising, we've spent far more hours in light airs than in even F7, let alone F8+. And one must face facts: boats with long keels and heavy displacement have more wetted area than lighter, fin keeled vessels of similar size... and that, as any NA will tell you, is a big disadvantage in light air. Motoring is one way of dealing with the situation, and one does see folks motoring when others are sailing. For long ocean passages (such as the OP envisions) fuel limitations can curtail that activity! For us, the ability to ghost along at three or four knots in glassy conditions is important and satisfying. YMMV.

Secondly, there is the issue of maneuverability. We recently had the opportunity to crew on a 45 ft LOD Herreschoff Mobjack ketch. This was in the classic races at the Cygnet Regatta's 150th anniversary. It was a good experience -- a gorgeous boat on a gorgeous day, and our very first sail on a ketch. I was surprised how much work it was! Everything was way harder than on our slightly larger fin keeled modern-ish boat, and everything happened so much slower. Tacking took around a minute to accomplish, with a crew of four flailing away at sheets, anxiously awaiting the bow to come through the wind. The evolution covered a surprising distance through the water. Seemed a bit awkward to me that day.

The next day, with more breeze, a different crew and a race which included modern race boats, a situation developed. Approaching a mark were 4 classic long keel boats on port tack, more or less in line and on their layline. When close to the mark, a race boat on starboard appeared and demanded right of way. All four classics began to tack away as required. The leading boat (a "'Couta boat" which is smaller and somewhat lighter than the Mobjack) succeeded, placing her directly across the bow of the Mobjack, which was plowing along at about 6 knots, slowly coming about. The skipper of the Mobjack called for the engine, and with a great roaring in reverse, the collision was barely averted. Besides the cloud of diesel smoke, the air was full of profanity seasoned with terror. There was minor contact, perhaps a few bruises, and in the end, no hard feelings. I was nearby driving the official photographer around in our dinghy, and was a horrified spectator to the event!

Of course, not everybody will want to race their cruising long keeler as these folks do here in Tassie. But there are other situations where the ability to maneuver rapidly may save your bacon, and perhaps your dignity. I would never be happy sailing such a cumbersome vessel. Again, YMMV as different things are important to different folks.

Oh, BTW, all of those thousands of cruising miles have been in fin keel skeg rudder boats, one of which was a dreaded IOR race boat (retired). I can not think of any time where I would have been happier in a more traditional boat.

Cheers,

Jim
Of course wetted surface makes a difference, but the real dogs in light airs are fuller keels AND a stubby SA/D. Not all fuller keels are such.
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Old 27-03-2014, 10:47   #141
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

someone declare a "winner"
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Old 27-03-2014, 11:07   #142
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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someone declare a "winner"
The winners are the people who are out there sailing, on whatever kind of boat, and are too busy having a good time to worry about it.
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Old 27-03-2014, 11:09   #143
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Let's not discount the Shannon, have one, she is built well, sails great, full keel and comfortable for a cruising couple!
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Old 27-03-2014, 11:44   #144
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

I am a huge fan of how Cambria balanced the bow. Not so flat that it pounds not so narrow that it sinks. Because the bow increases / flares it has a nice compromise of buoyancy to flat pounding surface. My older peterson has a similar entry. In that it comes nicely down when facing a sea. It enters smoothly and then rapidly resists or increases buoyancy.
Something that is often lost when discussing keels is how the pointy end works.
Probably because we don't like talking about our pointy ends but like talking about how our stuff is hung. My keel is fully hung but modified. Yours might be full and old or just hanging on. Rudder position will also make a huge difference in balance.
More fun to look at under bodies then look at all the pieces I guess.


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Old 27-03-2014, 12:41   #145
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Originally Posted by oldragbaggers View Post
Why is there so much type space being spent trying to convince people with a different type of boat that their boat is "wrong"?? (Or perhaps leading the OP to pass up the deal of a lifetime, or perfect boat within his budget, because of all the chatter about how that particular kind of boat is somehow unsuitable.) I can certainly see being in love with and enthusiastic about the boat you happen to sail, but must that necessarily lead to trying to convince the world that any other boat design is wrong?
There are not wrong boats, only more or less adapted to what someone wants to do and among those, some that do that with more or less efficiency. In what regards boats more adapted to what one wants to do there are older designs and newer designs. The newer designs do the same thing older designs do only better but of course that does not mean that an older design could not be a good deal, if one has not the budget for a new design.

Boat design is improving all the time and if a contemporary design is not much better than a 7 or 8 year old design it makes already a considerable difference to a 15 year old design and a big difference to a 30 year old design, in what regards performance and interior space. Sure there was some designs that were quite ahead of its time and those can be a good deal if one has not the money for a new boat.

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Originally Posted by oldragbaggers View Post
Those old boat designs may have come about as a necessity because of boat construction methods, but they were refined over how many hundreds of years?? And say what you might, to the eye they are about as close as you can come to a fully functioning piece of fine art. And they have been successfully carrying sailors all over the world for many years. Some people don't need the interior volume of a VFW hall and are content in small cozy spaces. The newer boat designs have the advantages of all the advances in technology and design, modern construction methods, less wood maintenance and large airy spaces. They are also carrying people safely over the oceans in all areas of the world.
That's evident. And stone age technology was developed during hundreds of thousands of years and I would not be able to replicate one of those nice "knives" and they certainly could live with that, but a steel knife works a lot better.

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I remember reading once that the best boat to go cruising in is the one you have, or the one that you can obtain and still have the resources left to finance the adventure. ..The question becomes which one meets more of the criteria that is important to YOU.
I agree completely.

To the OP: Get the best boat your money can buy, but if you have the money the best is a contemporary design, whatever the type you favor, from a voyage boat to a performance boat and certainly not one with a full keel simply because there are no contemporary full keel designs (and that's for a good reason).

If you have not the budget try to find a boat in good condition and one that does nor suffer from a very outdated design, one where you have enough space to live aboard and one that you like. Try to find one of those boats that were ahead of its time and that today still have a reasonably good sail performance. As Jim Cate pointed out from the top of his cruising 150 000Nm, performance in light wind is of paramount importance to a sailor and that's where the biggest difference lies between old and new designs, that and the rolly downwind motion, not to mention interior space.
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Old 27-03-2014, 14:19   #146
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

[QUOTE=cburger;1503028]
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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post

Actually many cases of keels and rudders coming off the fin and spade rudder set. I don't want to start naming brand names, but when some here make inane "Blanket" statements like "Full keels are a throwback to wooden construction methods rather then any inherent benefit" figured it was time to chime in with my inane 2 cents.

I have sailed many different boats of varying designs over the years and as I like to sail usually enjoyed myself on them all. That being said as I live aboard full time and eventually "Some day" plan to go out there somewhere I chose the particular boat I have now for a number of reasons, one of them being is the inherent toughness of the design and to my mind when you remove 75% of the underbody and have unprotected critical items like the keel and rudder hanging down unprotected sooner or later something "May" happen. I have hard grounded full keelers on underwater stone ledges, (That boat came away without a scratch) and have hit submerged telephone poles on the Hudson and watched in amazement as the pole bounced along under the keelson and popped up behind us. I would not want to have tried that with a fin keeler. I rode out hurricane Sandy in a slip on the Hudson in an area that was devastated, not a scratch on my "Old" design that has no place in the modern world, a friends fin keeler under the same circumstances lost his rudder, and still hasn't had it made.
Interesting counter. Thanks!
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Old 27-03-2014, 14:33   #147
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

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Actually many cases of keels and rudders coming off the fin and spade rudder set.

Actually, in the big scheme of things, keels falling off is a rarity.

There's a recent book that describes the tendency of headlines to be about relatively rare events, because that's news, and for people to overestimate the probability of those events based on the frequency of headlines.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but to rule out most modern boats from consideration based on the possibility of their keel falling off isn't something that should happen if you're paying attention.

The rudder might be a different consideration. I've lost one of those myself, but I wouldn't blame the boat.
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Old 27-03-2014, 15:21   #148
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

I grounded hard on an oyster reef and a large trawler hard a hard time dragging my boat off. My barn door rudder on my old full keel had some minor scratches.

You can't deny tough hulls.
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Old 27-03-2014, 16:06   #149
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

If we return to the original post to refresh our memories of what started this now long thread, we find no statement of the experience Mprice and his good lady have.

I suggest that the sailors' tastes for a good performing boat influenced Jim & me because we like "going fast" and Jim has both a background in physics and singlehanded racing. The OP doesn't. Since he is a newbie, and will be learning as he goes in any event, I think if he buys a boat (in the price range, etc.) that makes his heart go pitty-pat, he'll enjoy it.

It doesn't have to be our cup of tea, and he won't really mind that it takes a longer time to tack it than a fin keel, or that it may not back up predictably, or be difficult to maneuver in a marina because turning a full keel, it has to push a lot of water out of the way. He'll love it because it invoked "boat lust."

He'll learn to sail it however he sails it. Honestly, among cruisers, they range from people who care about sail trim to people who mainly ignore it. If he buys within his budget and wants later on to change boats, he can do that, too. Whatever he gets, it should be what he and his good lady want.

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Old 27-03-2014, 16:08   #150
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Re: A Full Keel Blue Water Cruiser Worthy of Living Aboard

OK, so like, I just gotta say, if anyone who has a Jeanneau or Benneteau and is ascared of their keel and rudder fallen' off because of what they read here, and wants to give it to me, I will take it off their hands for FREE.
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