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Old 13-04-2010, 14:50   #166
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I am probably going to piss someone off here, but will also hope to make some people think a bit. I am speaking what is on my mind and will keep an open mind on any replies...that is what this place is for an honest exchange of ideas and feelings.

Back to the mention of some of the posts in this thread being "US bashing". The basis for this country, the very foundation was to set up a goverment that gave the people the power to keep the goverment from getting out of control. Though over the years these freedoms have been slowly erodeded away. For the peoples "own safety" we are being led to believe that it is better to give up the freedoms our forefathers fought and died for to the controling powers than to have them taken away by a theoretical foe. (This way we don't have to loose our freedoms in a fight and can pat our selves on the back for "doing the right thing"). People should not follow thier goverment blindly, giving up the very things that are the reasons they support that goverment because they are told it is in there own best intrest (that almost sounds like religion). "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"

I have always considered the USCG the most honorable of the branches of the Military/Law enforcement. A friend of mine who is retired USCG pointed out to me that the CG has the widest jurisdiction of ANY branch of US law enforcement and has historically been spread excesively thin in man power, funding, equipment etc. In 2003 the USCG became a very powerful arm of Homeland security, which solved alot of it's problems, though caused some in doing so. To those Coasties out there who still consider thier primary job to be protectors against enemies such as nature, prirates, smugglers and ignorance I hold my utmost respect. For those that feel thiere primary job is to fight terrorism where it doesn't exist at any cost even if it means acting like you are in a war zone....you need to stand back, look at what is really going on and chill a bit. Granted there are not many like this, but enough to cause people to become uncomfortable with the USCG.
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Old 13-04-2010, 17:33   #167
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One of the most patriotic things one can do for one's country is oppose the abuse of innocents by its government.
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Old 13-04-2010, 17:33   #168
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Ladies & Gentlemen,

This is a one and only plea to return to the topic of "Can I Be Stopped in International Waters" and avoid the political discussions.

We generally do not like to close threads, but with 166 posts I think the original question is, "Asked and Answered." All we are doing now is prolonging the inevitable political discussion.

Cruisers Forum after years of experience does not do politics or religion. Within bounds and context we tolerate guns & pirates.

Once in a while we even allow an anchoring thread ;-)

Thanks for keeping this a friendly place.

-Dan
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Old 13-04-2010, 18:01   #169
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Here, here......I know my posts have drifted into the political and I apologize, I have said what I wanted to and everything everyone else has said has been responded to in as many ways possible. This started out as a question about being boarded in international waters, evolved into a discussion about the improprieties and defense of of the USCG, which was fine. But I agree it has drifted into areas befitting a totally different type of forum. Thanks for no one biting my head off for my political views....proof once again that sailors are a bit more mature than most of the people out there.

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Ladies & Gentlemen,

This is a one and only plea to return to the topic of "Can I Be Stopped in International Waters" and avoid the political discussions.

We generally do not like to close threads, but with 166 posts I think the original question is, "Asked and Answered." All we are doing now is prolonging the inevitable political discussion.

Cruisers Forum after years of experience does not do politics or religion. Within bounds and context we tolerate guns & pirates.

Once in a while we even allow an anchoring thread ;-)

Thanks for keeping this a friendly place.

-Dan
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Old 13-04-2010, 18:19   #170
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Time to close this thread IMHO.
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Old 14-04-2010, 17:07   #171
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Tow your wire rope when you see a threatening vessel approaching, point your stern at them, electrify your upper lifelines with 120 volt power from your inverter, put you tuna hooks over the side to discourage inflatables, and dont respond to them. Dont want to encourage them.
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Old 14-04-2010, 17:42   #172
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So back tothe question:

Yes you can be stopped in International Water, and National Waters also. For those that feel somehow they have the power to prevent it, BUll! Normally only criminals spend a bunch of time talking about loopholes of law etc. (so many sea lawyers and so little time) Unless you are a war ship that feels it has the power to stand up, if you are told to heave to for boarding do so or face being sunk etc as all that is going to happen is they will want to board you even more. If they ASK you if it OK and you want to say no, well that's Ok as long as they go along with it! If not be really to stop and be boarded!

Lets me real here. If it happens whoever is stopping you feels they can do it, and they probably have the means to enforce it! I doubt if you disagree that your agruement etc is going to make a positive difference to the outcome!
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Old 14-04-2010, 17:53   #173
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so after 172 posts the answer is .... Yes.

Phew, lets get a gun thread going again....
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Old 22-04-2010, 17:41   #174
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Can Somali Pirates stop you in international waters? Yes. Can government pirates stop you in international waters. Yes . Can they stop you legally in international waters? No. Will that prevent them from stopping you in international waters? No. I don't think anyone would ask such a stupid question.
I think the original question was whether anyone can legally stop you in international waters.
The answer is no.
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Old 23-04-2010, 07:28   #175
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I think the original question was whether anyone can legally stop you in international waters.
The answer is no.
Wrong. If you fly a flag, you are under the jurisdiction of your flag state in international waters. That is, a US vessel can be legally boarded by the USN or USCG in international waters; a Canadian vessel can be boarded by a Canadian Coast Guard or naval vessel; and so on.

If you don't fly a flag, then you are stateless and can be boarded legally by any navy (including the USCG) in international waters.
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Old 23-04-2010, 10:21   #176
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I think this thread is still interesting, and should be let alive. Yes, the original question was fairly easy and has been thoroughly answered. But there are a lot of interesting topics related to it that deserve more attention. These are bordering on politics, but I think they are more into philosophy. That's why this is interesting. This forum has a lot of knowledge about anchors, ropes, sails and all such, plus places to enjoy their proper use. But the same people have gathered more complex and deeper knowledge while living a life of gathering yachting knowledge. The more complex things are the ones deciding the important qualities of life.

Long distance sailors are most likely excessively preoccupied with feeling free. Free to leave, or stay. Free to be with whom you wish, and without. Free to think whatever you want about any thinkable topic. I feel that this crave for feeling free must be respected. But of course we must also relate to the various obligations necessary to interact with whatever is present where we choose to be. Be it anchoring wisely, not polluting our own bathing water, not bothering the people living by the beach next to us, avoiding actions forbidden by the local authorities and a never ending list of topics. All of this may be boiled down to one word: Respect. I like that word for its two sided nature.

When two meet, there can be no respect if it's not mutual. Coast Guard officials inside their territory do of course have jurisdiction and power to put their will through no matter what any yachtie might think. But most Coast Guard guys will notice that if they show friendly respect and do not utilize their actual power, they are able to do exactly the same controls, being treated with a beer and helping hands proudly showing the hidden nooks and crannies of the boat, as they do when waving their guns and making the yachtie really HATE them and laugh bitterly inside as they miss ALL the potential hiding places.

There is no doubt that unfair US bashing exists. Same goes even more for various officials like the Coast Guard doing their jobs. Still I don't see too much (but yes there is a bit) of either in this thread. What I do see is a concern that our beloved freedom is threatened more by the politics of the self proclaimed "Land of the Free" than it is by countries like Turkey, Serbia, Russia, Brazil, or you name it... Why is this so? I don't think it's only the self proclaimed "world police" role that does it. I think it seems like there is some sort of paranoia based on feeling alienated from the rest of the world. The old Norwegian writer Henrik Ibsen said "Peer Gynt is himself, enough." I don't know if that translates meaningfully, but in Norwegian it says it all...

The paranoia nowadays is for terrorism and drugs. Both are of course serious stuff, but if the cure is worse than the disease...? I'm definitely no communist, rather the opposite, but I'd say that McCarthy must have been way more damaging to the American society than any action possible hostile communists in the US could have thought of or achieved. I think "war on terrorism" shows many similarities. Like totally horrible disregard of the very good main ideas behind creating The United States.

Yachties are of course not at all the ones that suffer the most injustice. Some odd occurrence where some US Coast Guard control is badly done, mostly results in anger from being badly treated. Probably all CG personnel could benefit from contemplating the psychology of what they are into, and putting heavy attention to the mutual respect thought. Those same yachties will then be the best friends they will ever find. And we are together a (nice) beast with eyes everywhere. If USCG made an effort to befriend us and help us help them, they would get more info on the topics they want, than they could dream of by any amount of boardings.

An Embassy of a foreign country is considered part of the represented country. Even rather rogue nations respect that. If some important dissident has fled to an embassy, trying to go in and arrest him will be considered an extremely hostile act and may be reason for a full on war. A vessel in open seas can essentially be seen as just the same thing, but of course with a way weaker protection. On-board any boat at sea, the Captain is in absolute total command. Opposing that from within is called mutiny. Extremely serious business, but after trials in court, may sometimes be deemed right, if the Captain was obviously insane, criminal or such. Opposing it from outside is definitely piracy, unless similarly strong indications dictate that force must be used to avoid some more serious damage. It seems USCG has been ordered to deviate from this maritime basic rule. I see this as a lack of respect, probably a result of the paranoia built by the ghosts of McCarthyism.

The bottom line might be this: If boarded by some official anywhere who doesn't behave like you feel he should, see it as your task to give him a nice learning experience. Of course forget any use of power. Trust your social skills. I'm not religious, but I quite like at least one of the Ten Commandments: "Do to others like you want them to do to you." (My own faltering translation, but I guess you all know the right words). The nastiest of officials will be affected by being treated welcomingly. A Captain that pretends the official is behaving perfectly and that he is worth tons of friendly respect, will make him play up to that role quite quickly. (Of course stay off exaggeration towards irony). You are on your home ground. He's not. Use the strength of being the host, and actually in command of the vessel and all aboard it, to the benefit of all.

And again: Friendly mutual RESPECT. I love that.
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Old 23-04-2010, 17:01   #177
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Back in the days when I worked/lived on land I worked at a truck stop briefly. Occasionally a guy would come in with an attitude problem wanting to start something, a "yes sir no sir friendly attitude" gave him no excuse to do what he wanted to. Basically what this boils down to is if you are boarded by someone in an intimidating manner you have to not only not be intimidated, but do it in a non aggressive manner (ie be friendly back to someone who is trying to dominate/intimidate you with out challenging them psychologically).

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......
The bottom line might be this: If boarded by some official anywhere who doesn't behave like you feel he should, see it as your task to give him a nice learning experience. Of course forget any use of power. Trust your social skills. I'm not religious, but I quite like at least one of the Ten Commandments: "Do to others like you want them to do to you." (My own faltering translation, but I guess you all know the right words). The nastiest of officials will be affected by being treated welcomingly. A Captain that pretends the official is behaving perfectly and that he is worth tons of friendly respect, will make him play up to that role quite quickly. (Of course stay off exaggeration towards irony). You are on your home ground. He's not. Use the strength of being the host, and actually in command of the vessel and all aboard it, to the benefit of all.

And again: Friendly mutual RESPECT. I love that.
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Old 23-04-2010, 17:44   #178
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Having plenty of dirty laundery available for inspection does no harm either
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Old 23-04-2010, 17:46   #179
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If you become a blip on "their" radar screen they can and will swoop on you and........"if you want your rights, ask em to read em"
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Old 23-04-2010, 18:24   #180
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If you become a blip on "their" radar screen they can and will swoop on you and........"if you want your rights, ask em to read em"
Only time I have ever been boarded was when I had a radar reflector up.
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