Best Place to Get a Sailing Yacht Registered ?

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

... Wondering how e.g. West Indies authorities react when they see a US flagged (but Deleware registered) boat ...

Has Delaware seceded from the Union?

[Healer52]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

F

BTW Wondering how e.g. West Indies authorities react when they see a US flagged (but Deleware registered) boat with a EU owner. I imagine if they are smart, they just charge the fees and let it be. But once in a beurocratic place (e.g. Brazil) the happy owner might be less self assured.

barnie

Well, since to be US documented (flagged) state registration is irrelevant, and the owner must be a US citizen or corporation, I'd bet it's not much of an issue.

[hellosailor]

"Has Delaware seceded from the Union? "
Who would know? How could you tell if it had? <WEG>

August is what the press used to call "Silly Season" because so little of consequence happens (i.e. it is the only month with no federal or traditional holidays in the US) that ANYTHING can get into the papers. Perhaps next year, an email flash to alert people that Delaware has seceded from the Union....? Mark it on your calendaers, first Monday in August, "Delaware Secession Day".

[dean.collins]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

And of course, re-entering the US, whatever visa or entry regulations affect you if you've left the US.

wow you guys really need to find out about green cards....

[hellosailor]

Ah, no, really, those of us who are citizens don't need to know anything about green cards. Our GUESTS can get that information directly from our EMPLOYEES in the fed.

And if our guests want to fly or sail here, we don't need to tell them how to sail a boat, buy tickets, or fly the plane, that's also someone else's job.


Of course, if you know all about green cards and re-entry and you're not sharing that information, you're just being mean. In which case, you can go sit in the corner and take a timeout like the other mean kids.

[dean.collins]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Ah, no, really, those of us who are citizens don't need to know anything about green cards. Our GUESTS can get that information directly from our EMPLOYEES in the fed.

And if our guests want to fly or sail here, we don't need to tell them how to sail a boat, buy tickets, or fly the plane, that's also someone else's job.


Of course, if you know all about green cards and re-entry and you're not sharing that information, you're just being mean. In which case, you can go sit in the corner and take a timeout like the other mean kids.

QED. proves my point exactly.

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

. . . BTW Wondering how e.g. West Indies authorities react when they see a US flagged (but Deleware registered) boat with a EU owner. I imagine if they are smart, they just charge the fees and let it be. But once in a beurocratic place (e.g. Brazil) the happy owner might be less self assured.
barnie

That one is easy, the EU owner has dual citizenship, one of which is US citizenship. There are many countries that are eligible as dual citizenship with the USA.
- - State registration, Delaware or Montana, is of no importance or concern of any foreign government's customs officials. If you have USCG documentation, US State registration has to do only with the "use of" and "use tax/sales tax" considerations of having a boat in US waters.
- - The only "papers" the foreign customs officials want to see is your "federal documentation" for US boats and a similar such document if your boat is from another country.
- - Where things get sticky is when your boat's country of documentation does not match the Captain's passport country (bareboat charter rentals excluded). Then they want to know why and if you have a document from the owner of the vessel authorizing your use of the vessel. Some officials will read the documentation certificate and note whether the listed "owner" on the documentation certificate is the same person as the "captain" and if not they want to know why.
- - However, quite a few countries only look at the nationality of the boat's documentation certificate and the nationality of the passports and if they are the same they just stamp you in/out.

[ianhef]

Can we get back to the problem of Irish registration again for a little while. I'm in Sydney Australia where I purchased a 36ft yacht a couple of years ago. The previous owner had her on the British Small Ships Register, I have her on NSW Maritime (local state) registration. Tried to get Australian registration but because I'm not a permanent resident my application was refused. We are going to cruise the Pacific in January so need some form of national registration. I was told I'd have to get Irish registration. Easier said than done. I contacted the powers that be in Ireland and was told:

if the pleasure craft you wish to have registered is abroad, you must make arrangements with the Marine Survey Office of the Department of Transport, for a warrant to be issued to a Surveyor outside the State, who is a verified member of an approved Classification Society, to carry out the official measurement (Tonnage Survey) of the vessel on the Department’s behalf.

Getting this tonnage survey is difficult. I contacted Lloyds who were very helpful but said they deal with ships and ships exclusively, a survey would cost several thousand dollars, not really and option! Does anyone know of any surveyors in the Sydney region that are verified members of an approved classification society?

I'm kind of running out of options (and money) here, any help advice or solace gratefully received. I'm going through one of those phases where it just seems to be one thing after the next............

[feelsgood]

Originally Posted by ianhef

Can we get back to the problem of Irish registration again for a little while. I'm in Sydney Australia where I purchased a 36ft yacht a couple of years ago. The previous owner had her on the British Small Ships Register, I have her on NSW Maritime (local state) registration. Tried to get Australian registration but because I'm not a permanent resident my application was refused. We are going to cruise the Pacific in January so need some form of national registration. I was told I'd have to get Irish registration. Easier said than done. I contacted the powers that be in Ireland and was told:

if the pleasure craft you wish to have registered is abroad, you must make arrangements with the Marine Survey Office of the Department of Transport, for a warrant to be issued to a Surveyor outside the State, who is a verified member of an approved Classification Society, to carry out the official measurement (Tonnage Survey) of the vessel on the Department’s behalf.

Getting this tonnage survey is difficult. I contacted Lloyds who were very helpful but said they deal with ships and ships exclusively, a survey would cost several thousand dollars, not really and option! Does anyone know of any surveyors in the Sydney region that are verified members of an approved classification society?

I'm kind of running out of options (and money) here, any help advice or solace gratefully received. I'm going through one of those phases where it just seems to be one thing after the next............

I dont know if this will be of help to you but have you looked at registry in either Guernsey or Jersey in the British Channel Islands
Regards Pete

[ianhef]

Tempting and I may go down that road but I'm hoping for the Irish registry in order to make things more straight forward when I eventually move home and bring the boat with me. Also kind of really thought I'd be able to fly the Irish flag on my great journey! Looking a bit doubtful now

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Barnie, are you saying, or simply dancing around the issue, of residency versus citizenship?

A resident alien in the US cannot "register" a US vessel for documentation and flagging. Only a citizen can. And in most of our states, simply being there for 30 days (or 90 or 183) may make you a resident--but not necessarily a citizen.

I would expect the same difference in status applies in the EU member states. Simply being a resident is not the same as being a citizen, and the protection (yes, legal and armed protection) extended to sovereign-flagged vessels usually is based on citizenship, not residency, AFAIK.

Right. The US is unusual in being fixated on citizenship. It is extremely strange that even a green card holder can't document a vessel in the U.S., but that seems to be the case.

In all other countries I know of, that is NOT the case, and residence -- being "established" -- is the standard for being able to register a boat in that country.

As far as I know, what has been written here about the EU is NOT true -- if you are the citizen of an EU country (NOT an "EU citizen" -- so far no such thing as the EU, so far, is NOT a country), you have to register your boat in the country of your residence. But as far as I know, no one cares about citizenship. Even a U.S. citizen, if "established" in the UK, can register a boat on the UK registry.

A company is a "person" in legal terms, and can be the owner of a boat, and will be entitled to register that boat in the country of its "citizenship". That is how I have my boat registered in the UK, although I am neither citizen nor resident of that country. There is no requirement in the UK that such a company have a majority of directors who are UK citizens; I am the sole director of that company. It's very convenient and perfectly legal.

An citizen of an EU country cannot easily avoid VAT by registering a boat in a non-EU country. Some people pretend they are visiting from outside of the EU, and leave the EU every 18 months in order to restart the VAT clock ticking. This works fine for citizens and residents of non-EU countries, but if you are citizen or resident of an EU country, watch out! If the boat is considered to be "under the control" of a citizen of an EU country, they may revoke the 18-month VAT exemption and sock it to you!

Note that: "Temporary importation relief from VAT is available to yachts beneficially owned and used by non EU residents provided such non EU resident does not become ordinarily resident in the EU." http://www.myyachtregistration.com/eu-vat-regulations/. " It must be stressed that the above 18-month VAT relief applies only where the boat is owned and sailed by a person not resident in the customs territory of the EU. The relief is invalidated if the boat is hired, sold or put at the disposal of a EU resident." Ibid.

The word "beneficially" means in this context -- practically, not formally. It means that if you are an EU resident and you are the person practically and really using the boat, the fact that the boat is registered in say a US company, doesn't help you. You are the "beneficial" owner, although the legal owner is the US company.


To the OP:

If you have been resident outside the EU for a certain period of time, you are entitled to bring your chattels with you tax free when you return. That includes boats. You might check out that handy exemption. I believe it is commonly used.

[Geminidawn]

I've thrown in the towel regarding trying to get the boat registered in Ireland, the tidal wave of bureaucratic bulls**t the send in your direction just ain't worth it! In fact I'll have very little to do with Ireland again maritime related unless they seriously get their act together!
I'm going to get mine registered in the Cook Islands and join the Cook Island Yacht Squadron. I had some correspondence with them and it all looks simple, straight forward and not over priced which is the way it should be.

[goboatingnow]

A company is a "person" in legal terms, and can be the owner of a boat, and will be entitled to register that boat in the country of its "citizenship". That is how I have my boat registered in the UK, although I am neither citizen nor resident of that country. There is no requirement in the UK that such a company have a majority of directors who are UK citizens; I am the sole director of that company. It's very convenient and perfectly legal.

Yes but wraping a private boat in a company merely for the purposes of registration is silly. For example a UK company cannot be a hobby business, you cannot use the boat without a "benefit-in-kind" charge being levied and you you have to maintain the fiction of a commercial activity.( and possibly meet MCA commercial boat requirements) Then you have to make the regular company filings. All iin all its a PITA and very easy to fall foul of corporate law.

registration. Easier said than done. I contacted the powers that be in Ireland and was told:

if the pleasure craft you wish to have registered is abroad, you must make arrangements with the Marine Survey Office of the Department of Transport, for a warrant to be issued to a Surveyor outside the State, who is a verified member of an approved Classification Society, to carry out the official measurement (Tonnage Survey) of the vessel on the Department’s behalf.

Ianhef, I share your pain, The fact is that the irish register is bot set up for small boats, There is a plan to bring ina small vessels register but nothing yet,

One thing that isnt acknowledged, is that you can register on the Brirish Part I register and effectively transfer in to the Irish one without any further ado. ( However you must qualify for Part I register), Its a lot cheaper and easier to do UK Part 1 register and switch accross then Irish register.

My surveyors fees in 2005 for UK part1 was only 800 pounds plus lift out. Also you could find a YBDSA surveyor, and the Irish register will generally accept these. Use a surveyor who regulary does private yachts. Teh survey is a trivial thing , its mainly to establish the carrying volume of the boat ( takes about 1/2 hour). The irish registration authorities will also need a complete record of all owners and VAT documentation ( usually an original sales invoice).

Dave

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Geminidawn

I'm going to get mine registered in the Cook Islands and join the Cook Island Yacht Squadron. I had some correspondence with them and it all looks simple, straight forward and not over priced which is the way it should be.

Will be very interested in how that goes and your total costs..... who are you using to arrange the registration?

Do you meet their minimum 20m LOA rule for registration or are you considered close enough?

[Geminidawn]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Will be very interested in how that goes and your total costs..... who are you using to arrange the registration?

Do you meet their minimum 20m LOA rule for registration or are you considered close enough?

Considered close enough I guess, I already submitted most of the measurements and they were pretty eager to proceed.
I am an associate of Lloyd's and a Lloyd's Small Craft Surveyor so I'll be doing most of the work myself. Taking into consideration the reception I got from Ireland was as cold as the weather I'll be leaving it in the South Pacific and registering it on their doorstep.