Apparently AIS & RADAR not Adequate Substitute for Lookout

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by StuM

Herrmann is an idiot:

"At 19:50h UTC this evening, while racing in third place, some 90 miles from the Vendée Globe finish line off Les Sables d’Olonne,"

"he said he was asleep before the collision. He also questioned why his alarms did not alert him to the other vessel, raising the question that perhaps the fishing vessel was not broadcasting AIS."

And arrogant and clueless:

“As if we didn’t have enough stress, this adds to the stress. Half an hour of checking, convincing him. ‘Get out of my way, I’m a sailboat. I have right of way!’ Ha!,” he said, recalling the event."

Yep. You pretty much nailed it.



A fishing boat not broadcasting AIS? Who would ever imagine such a thing


"Clueless" is an understatement.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by zstine

COLREGS DO NOT require someone "ON DECK" to look and listen. The government has approved Naval ghost fleet overlord unmanned boats to operate IAW COLREGS BUT THEY ARE NOT AUTONOMOUS, they are "remotely manned" as sensors send live feeds to men keeping watch.

" Commodore Capt. Hank Adams said ... that, using an Overlord vessel in the end of Fiscal Year 2020 . . . he would create the first 24-hour watch “of a fleet-manned unmanned operations center ashore, UOC ashore. It’s going to be here in San Diego. So I’m going to have fleet operators, [surface warfare]-qualified junior officers who have got training in COLREGs and ship-handling and things like that, and senior enlisted personnel in relevant rates, are going to stand up this watch"


That said, there are likely hundreds of autonomous boats sailing around 'for science' like the Mayflower, Geospatial's sail-drone, SCOUT transatlantic, the open ocean robotics boat, etc. These are using sensors and computers to avoid collisions. It has yet to be seen if this would hold up in court as no authority has certified them to COLREGS as far as I know.


Boris was in violation of the law, as are all the sailors in the Vendee Globe. It is a known risk/issue. AIS and RADAR are not a proper lookout, but soon 'sensors and computers' will certainly be approved to COLREG rule 5.

What governments allow their Navies to do is not the same as what they allow commercial and recreational vessel to do.

The existing fleet of drone boats are small and unlikely to cause damage to any vessel if they are in a collision. The new autonomous vessels are getting larger and autonomous cargo vessels are contemplated.

Let's say a large autonomous vessel is overtaking a smaller vessel, the smaller vessel maintains its course as required of a StandOn vessel, then alters course when the collision becomes immanent, the larger autonomous vessel also alters course and runs down the smaller vessel.

Who will be responsible for the liability, the vessel owner/operator, the designer of the lookout software?

If somebody dies will there be criminal liability for inadequate lookout and who will it fall on?

AI learning is not like human learning, you can't tell what the computer makes of a situation because you can't ask it questions, you can only look at past history to guess at how it will react to future novel situations.

This is a whole new area of law and folks are intending to give AI command of 100,000tonne vessels.

[beirutsailor]

Originally Posted by StuM

Herrmann is an idiot:


"At 19:50h UTC this evening, while racing in third place, some 90 miles from the Vendée Globe finish line off Les Sables d’Olonne,"

"he said he was asleep before the collision. He also questioned why his alarms did not alert him to the other vessel, raising the question that perhaps the fishing vessel was not broadcasting AIS."


And arrogant and clueless:

“As if we didn’t have enough stress, this adds to the stress. Half an hour of checking, convincing him. ‘Get out of my way, I’m a sailboat. I have right of way!’ Ha!,” he said, recalling the event."

Hermann is an idiot is the most stupid statement I have ever read on any nautical blog, and there is plenty of competition. Hermann is not only a superb sailor, but one of the most thoughtful and intelligent ones. He had multiple alarm systems that failed. Like an anchor alarm, e.g., when you sleep! He speaks fluent French and good English, is a truly nice guy and has accomplished one of the most challenging ordeals imaginable in perfect physical and mental state. An idiot? What arrogance.

[kmacdonald]

Let's not split hairs again. Collisions at sea are 50/50 fault no matter what. Us singlehanders rely on others playing by the rules. We do the best we can with limited waking hours.

[kmacdonald]

I'm not going to tell you I woke up surrounded by 17 shrimpers in the dead of night.

[Montanan]

The future progression of Vendee Globe racing.

Next evolution:

Autonomous, unmanned vessels, operated remotely via satellite link from the comfort of one's living room, purest form of Bon Voyaging.

Soon to be followed by, streaming, on demand, AI, virtual sailing. No physical vessel but loads of hazards, storms, obstacles, groundings, dull drums, collisions and allisions, and PIRATES, got to add pirates.




https://youtu.be/Pg8kf5HYHMo?t=29

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by beirutsailor

Hermann is an idiot is the most stupid statement I have ever read on any nautical blog, and there is plenty of competition. Hermann is not only a superb sailor, but one of the most thoughtful and intelligent ones. He had multiple alarm systems that failed. Like an anchor alarm, e.g., when you sleep! He speaks fluent French and good English, is a truly nice guy and has accomplished one of the most challenging ordeals imaginable in perfect physical and mental state. An idiot? What arrogance.

The fact that Herman is a superb sailor, thoughtful, intelligent, speaks multiple languages, is in perfect physical and mental condition doesn't change the fact that his violation of the rules directly resulted in a collision and that he has expressed no remorse for the collision nor concern for the crew of the vessel he hit that I have heard of.

If he didn't understand that he was not maintaining an adequate lookout when sleeping then he is an idiot about the COLREGs.
Certainly he is an idiot in terms of the PR nightmare he is creating for himself with his public attitude about the collision and his previous encounter with a cargo vessel. His problem is not realizing that whatever his personal feelings about the collision are, accepting responsibility and expressing concern about the fishing crew are the appropriate public responses. Talking about how his alarms didn't wake him looks like him trying to duck responsibility which is not a good PR stance.

Most people are great at somethings and idiots about other things. Although I know a few people who are idiots about most things.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by sanibel sailor

90 miles has to be only a few hours for these guys.

Undamaged wouldn't be more like five-ish?

[Jim Cate]

There sure has been a lot of condemnation of Herman's lack of remorse about injury or damage to the fishing vessel... but no one has shown that there was ANY such outcome of the collision. I've no info, but it seems pretty likely that the much larger steel vessel suffered only paint scratches and that there were no crew injuries whatsoever.

Before one condemns his arrogance and unfeeling nature, it would be good to have some facts in hand... lest one be accused of arrogance oneself.

Jim

[Clivevon]

Originally Posted by StuM

Herrmann is an idiot:


"At 19:50h UTC this evening, while racing in third place, some 90 miles from the Vendée Globe finish line off Les Sables d’Olonne,"

"he said he was asleep before the collision. He also questioned why his alarms did not alert him to the other vessel, raising the question that perhaps the fishing vessel was not broadcasting AIS."

And arrogant and clueless:

“As if we didn’t have enough stress, this adds to the stress. Half an hour of checking, convincing him. ‘Get out of my way, I’m a sailboat. I have right of way!’ Ha!,” he said, recalling the event."

Thirded. Arrogant f....r.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

There sure has been a lot of condemnation of Herman's lack of remorse about injury or damage to the fishing vessel... but no one has shown that there was ANY such outcome of the collision. I've no info, but it seems pretty likely that the much larger steel vessel suffered only paint scratches and that there were no crew injuries whatsoever.

Before one condemns his arrogance and unfeeling nature, it would be good to have some facts in hand... lest one be accused of arrogance oneself.

Jim

Bravo.. having experience with a large fishing boat doing in excess of 10 knots in the dead of night with all but 1 crew asleep and questionable lights just maintaining an AIS watch despite having radar in 3+ metres seas I can vouch for the fact collisions with Spanish and other fishing boats is not uncommon in the Biscay.
In my case I did not see him and only spotted him after the collision when his deck lights started coming on.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by Montanan

It was disconcerting to watch the video and to not hear a single word about whether anyone on the trawler was injured or an inquiry made as to damage done to the fishing boat. It was like listening to a hit and run driver speak about how lucky he was to avoid injury or dramatic damage.

Incredibly one-sided and self-centered perspective. He was merely disappointed that he was going to lose positions as to the leaders in the race.

He was sailing, likely at considerable speed with no watch keeping. Illegal and unethical.

I had the same thought, no concern for the fishing boat/crew. However, that was cleared up when I listened to the report a second time; he said something like, I awoke and saw a solid wall...meaning the topsides of one of those very large/huge commercial fishing boats...he even said that part of the rigging caught on the fishing boat's CRANE...he is lucky he didn't sink.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[MJH]

Originally Posted by Adelie

https://gcaptain.com/vendee-globe-sk...-fishing-boat/

Rule 5 - Lookout
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageNam...lgamated#rule5

I look at Rule 5 as a legal Best Practices measure.

Laws/rules are promulgated to underline accepted standards of behavior and we all agree that looking where you are going is fundamentally the best practice.

Like most laws/rules they are not always enforced at all times for many reasons...just asked the cops in your neighborhood or a prosecuting attorney.

But when bad things happen those laws/rules come into play in deciding who was at fault and has to pay the price of his/her behavior...word to the wise.

I sail solo a lot and even very long distances across an international border. The thought of a marine patrol stopping me and telling me I shouldn't be sailing solo because of Rule 5 is pure overreach.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[Pizzazz]

It feels to me some people are overreacting and follow the rules to closely. Rules are meant to be broken...

Seriously, though, rules are made to make our lifes easier but they need to adapt to the progress of technology. AIS is a fantastic technology to prevent collisions at sea and beats a human any time (reliable, robust, calculates point of closest contact much better and faster than a human can do). AIS can fail but so can a human.

For me, the right way to go is to mandate AIS for any boat that is in international waters (>12nm). If you are a fishing or military vessel choosing not to transmit then by default you would be considered at fault. If you do not have AIS or it is broken then you should be required to either keep watch 24/7 and there should be at least two on board or head back yo port. Also, you can easily have a self testing AIS setup or a dual AIS setup that ensures that the probability of failure is very low.

This would be the way to go for autonomous vehicles plus remote control in critical situations. You can't stop progress because a few old timers want to enjoy sailing with a paper and compass, single handed, half asleep, etc. If they do, it is at their own risk. A similar, though not exactly comparable will be ABS brakes in autos. ABS brakes are superior and allow traffic to move much faster in slippery conditions. If you have an old car without ABS you are a danger to yourself and to everyone else on the highway because you cannot brake as effectively as the other cars. So such cars should not be insurable in my opinion (or should have restrictions to movement).

ex-SV Pizzazz

[250224]

Originally Posted by beirutsailor

Hermann is an idiot is the most stupid statement I have ever read on any nautical blog, and there is plenty of competition. Hermann is not only a superb sailor, but one of the most thoughtful and intelligent ones. He had multiple alarm systems that failed. Like an anchor alarm, e.g., when you sleep! He speaks fluent French and good English, is a truly nice guy and has accomplished one of the most challenging ordeals imaginable in perfect physical and mental state. An idiot? What arrogance.

+1

Covid seems to put stress on some forists and all they can do is abusive talk. Those legalese fundamentalists! Ha, many probably 120+ and wish back the gold old steam train epoch, can't see that technology changes some things. And yes, sometimes accidents happen.

There was no-one injured. Tesla is bringing modern transportation forward and there are (very few) casualities. We, as a society, accept this. How many thousand time less dangerous is traffic at sea than car traffic on the roads?