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**Wotname** · 01-03-2008, 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by fstbttms

Another are photoreactive paints that, when exposed to sunlight, develop a layer of hydrogen peroxide that fouling organisims don't like. There are others as well.

Surely hydrogen peroxide is toxic - maybe won't collect on the seabed as heavy sludge but in essence would be the same as pouring it from the bottle around the boat every day. I am not suggesting that this really the same or that simple; but the whole idea is (was) to kill marine organisms. Currently we do it very non-selectivly and when you put a lot of boats together in crowded space and another group of people who don't want evrything killed in that area - conflict; new laws for one group or the other.

Opps.. getting off topic and also hi-jacking Charlie's thread - sorry

Charlie · 01-03-2008, 16:25

Thanks for all the commetns. I posted the same question with the Southbound group on Yahoo and there are paints avaialble in Mexico that you cannot by in the US that are very good for growth in that climate. I don't know why they are not allowed in the US. Too toxic? But the thread hijacking has opened my eyes to problems that we as boaters can/do cause with the environment.

fstbttms · 01-03-2008, 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie

...there are paints avaialble in Mexico that you cannot by in the US that are very good for growth in that climate. I don't know why they are not allowed in the US. Too toxic?

You have answered your own question. Mexico is not a nation known to be on the forefront of environmental stewardship. So yes, you can buy products there that other governments have determined to be too toxic for use.

Joli · 01-03-2008, 18:09

The internet is a wonderful thing. You may not be able too buy it where you live but you can buy it on line............

delmarrey · 01-03-2008, 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by fstbttms

2.- Nothing against you, but the article you have linked to is so full of misrepresentations, omissions and unchecked "facts" that it is hard to take seriously. The author clearly has little interest in, or knowledge of, the realities of the copper-loading issue in California.

No offense taken!

Just thought I'd throw in a little of what's to come.

**Alan Wheeler** · 01-03-2008, 22:08

Quote:

Wotname said=Surely hydrogen peroxide is toxic -

No Hydrogen Peroxide is not toxic. It is dangerous to contact because it is highly reactive as an oxidiser. If you look at the chemical abbreviation H2O2, it will help it make more sense. There is an extra oxygen atom. The extra atom means that when H2O2 contacts anything it can react with, the extra oxygen atom breaks free. This leaves behind H2O and O. Or in simple terms, water and oxygen. H2O2 is highly reactive with anything organic and anything that oxidises like steel for instance.
I would suggest that the hardest task in having H2O2 in a paint, would be having coating that would nto allow the H2O2 to come in contact with the hull. Especially if the hull was metal of some kind.
Hmmmm, seeing as rockets are propelled with H202 contacting Silver or Platinum, (produces instant high temperature steam) maybe we should look at making our hulls from either metals and pour H2O2 in the water at the stern. The result would be instant steam and it would push us along. :-)

**Hud3** · 02-03-2008, 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie

Thanks Hud. I'll look into that. I am reading the Practical sailor review and the Micron CSC is rated as good in the warmer climates of Florida.

I used Micron CSC Extra in the Caribbean for several seasons. It repelled the barnacles, but would allow some slime to form (not a huge amount), and we got string algae at the waterline. I've had the Micron 66 for four months now, and I'd recommend it over the CSC.

**Wotname** · 02-03-2008, 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler

No Hydrogen Peroxide is not toxic....

Hmm... surely it is toxic - Toxicity is the degree to which something is able to produce illness or damage to an exposed organism. - Wikipedia. I would agree it is not a toxin. As Wheels points out it is a oxidiser or as I would call it, a bleach. However my point was really that it will kill things like the marine organisms fouling the hull so is it much different from a toxic copper based product. Perhaps, as H2O2 will finally breakdown to H2O and O while a copper based product finally breakdowns to cupric hydrochloride which is water soluble. I would have thought the biocides in most bottom paints are just as much concern to the enviroment.

**Alan Wheeler** · 02-03-2008, 10:27

Quote:

However my point was really that it will kill things like the marine organisms fouling the hull so is it much different from a toxic copper based product.

The difference between copper (what ever form) is that it always will remain. So it builds up in the water adnt eh floor sediment. It is there forever. H2O2 is very short lived. It will only last a few factions of a second as it is produced on the coating surface and then it instantly comes in contact with organic particles in the water and reacts. I imagine the H2O2 will be in a concentration right on the coating surface. If it were concentrated enough, it may bleach your skin if you held your hand hard against the hull. And this is how it will stop growth of both flora and fauna. But that would be it. H2O2 bleaches yes, but it is not like a chlorine Bleach that remains a chlorine chemical till it is dilute and breaks down by sunlight, yet kills everything in the water till it does.
As for toxins that they put into copper coatings, yes it also is in the water for good. But the idea is that it becomes so dilute that it is no problem. But you still have to ask the question of is it really dilute engouh when you have boats in a concentration like a marina.

**Pblais** · 02-03-2008, 14:04

Quote:

H2O2 bleaches yes, but it is not like a chlorine Bleach

Actually it oxidizes so the term "bleach" is inappropriate.

MidLandOne · 02-03-2008, 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pblais

Actually it oxidizes so the term "bleach" is inappropriate.

Both H2O2 and chlorine are oxidants so does that mean neither is a "bleach"?

Hypochlorites, the constituent in many household "bleaches", are oxidants too, so does that mean that they are not "bleaches" either?

Errr, come to think of it what is a "bleach"?

**Alan Wheeler** · 02-03-2008, 22:12

Bleach is not a "chemical" it is an action. It is a whitening effect. Whitening can also be via the removal of colour's.
So here's a brain teaser. If the colour white is the equal mix of all the colours in the spectrum, how come the removal of colour makes white??
Chlorine also bleaches using an oxidation process. However, there are many different Chlorine chemical groups. Plain ole Household Chlorine is usually Sodium Hypochlorite.
Sodium Perborate and Sodium Percarbonate both produce Hydrogen Peroxide. Common table Salt or in other words, the stuff that makes the sea salty, is Sodium Chloride.

**GordMay** · 03-03-2008, 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler

B... If the colour white is the equal mix of all the colours in the spectrum, how come the removal of colour makes white??

The apparent colour of an object is determined by the colours of light it absorbs, and the colours of light it reflects.
Pigments and dyes typically work by selectively absorbing certain colours and transmitting or reflecting the ones they do not absorb. They act by subtraction, removing certain colours from the light.
Bleaching removes (subtracts) these dyes & pigment colours.
When colored lights are mixed (added) together, the result is additive rather than subtractive. Thus, when the additive primaries (red, green and blue light) are mixed together, the result is white. When white light falls on a red object, the object appears red because its surface absorbs (subtracts) all colors of light except red. Bleaching out the red, results in an equally mixed reflection of all colours, producing a white colour.