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Old 24-12-2015, 14:39   #16
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Re: Loose Shrouds

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Originally Posted by chris95040 View Post
Any details about this? I do that very, very often.
Usually on this kind of rigging failure, it occurs at the point where the wire enters the rigging terminal (more or less). And the wear/degradation of the wire (or rod) at this point, is due in great part, to the stress concentration from the weight of the sail & foil's movements, all being focused on the one small area of wire (at each end). With the point where it enters the rigging terminal becoming much more of a hard point, than on a bare stay or shroud.

IE; The weight of the sail & furler, flexes the wire a lot harder, with each wave, than a piece of wire that doesn't have a furler or sail on it. Be the sail fully rolled up, or partially reefed.
In addition of course, to the standard loads which a headsail puts on a stay.

Plus, it's pretty tough to rinse your headstay with fresh water, periodically, when it's stuffed inside of a furler's foil. Unlike you can easily do with all of your other stays. So the corrosion rate will be higher, due to this.

Also, of course, the stay's uninspectable, unless you disassemble your furler & pull the foil off of the stay.

The metal fatigue type of failure described above, happened to Dame Ellen McArthur, on one of her solo, RTW record runs. Which she set in an Open 60. Even though the primary headstay was built to far larger spec than called for in the rigging tables.
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Old 24-12-2015, 15:04   #17
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Re: Loose Shrouds

This all makes sense. So in April when the boat comes out of winter storage I'll take her into the yard where we (the yard men and I) can drop the mast a check it all out. It will not be cheap of quick but I'm convinced necessary.
The only question I have now is can I safely motor the boat down the ICW to my home area, to a yard near New Orleans or should I go ahead and pay a premium price and do it in CT?.
thanks for all the input.
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Old 24-12-2015, 15:13   #18
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Re: Loose Shrouds

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Originally Posted by jmczzz View Post
I trusted the seller to be telling me the truth. no mention of rigging problems. I noticed the loose shrouds and bottomed out turnbuckles after the fact. I did ask him about them and he said they were not a problem. In light of you folks comments that seems to not be the case. I just need to get her down to the New Orleans area (my home turf) where I know the folks in yards, lofts and marinas. and I will not have to stay in a hotel etc.

I planed on going back up there in Feb to do some prep so I'll investigate more based on you advice. I'm not sure how to check the compression under the deck stepped mast. Any tips on that would be welcomed.
Discouraged but not defeated, Thanks James
Not to dishearten you, but you might consider/look into putting her on a trailer & towing her home. As otherwise, you're contemplating quite a long journey, with just an outboard, & a very, very suspect rig.

As far as checking compression. Option one is to hire a good surveyor.
And even if you go that route, you can also drill some small inspection holes, part of the way through the deck, near the base of the mast. And then take an ice pick, & test the integrity of the core.
That, & what comes out of the holes when you drill them will tell you a lot about it's condition.

The holes can be temporarily, or permanently re-filled with epoxy, depending on the condition of what you find. As if the core's wet, & rotting (or starting to), then it'll need replacement.
And a surveyor will be a big help in determining if things in that area (& elsewhere) are wet, or rotten. Especially if he has, & is well versed (certified) with a thermal imager.

Some other easy ways to check things, would be to take a long straight edge to the underside of the deck, in the vicinity of the mast. And what you're looking for of course, are downward depressed areas of the deck.

Also, a close inspection of the tabbing of the bulkhead underneath of the spar is in order. Especially as, from the line drawings of your boat that I'm looking, they at don't show any compression post underneath of the mast.

If you do have one. Take a good look at it, & especially it's base, plus what the base rests on. And any degradation or deformation should be pretty easy to spot.

Also, there's plenty of info on DIY surveying, on here, & online in general. Including some good (inexpensive) books on the subject.
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Old 24-12-2015, 15:25   #19
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Re: Loose Shrouds

Sailboatdata (if that's what you are looking at) doesn't show any compression post lines either for a Catalina 22. But my C22 has a compression post from cabin top to hull.
The Dufour has a thick square post like structure at the corner of bulkhead and companion way to head and v berth. I thought that would be the compression post as it is under the mast. I'll check closer next visit.
thanks I'll also do some forum search and study.
Got any particular book in mind?
thanks James
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Old 24-12-2015, 15:29   #20
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Re: Loose Shrouds

oh and the tow it on a trailer is not an option as I do not have one and to hire it done is way to costly. If she is suffering from any major problem I might just have to scuttle or abandon her. Do you know the legal ramifications of those options?
thanks James
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Old 24-12-2015, 15:37   #21
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Re: Loose Shrouds

If you're going to re-rig, and with StaLoks (which won't pay for themselves till the next time you need to renew wire) you can source it from anywhere and bring it with you.

The real problem is if the mast step, deck, or compression post have move.

Generally, if you scuttle her, they'll find it and fine you. You'll also have to pay to have it cut up and taken to the dump.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings.
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Old 24-12-2015, 15:43   #22
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Re: Loose Shrouds

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris95040 View Post
Any details about this? I do that very, very often.
Chris, I'm sorry, I don't understand it well enough to explain. However, fwiw, we were told afterwards that it is a common failure, and there is something about how the loading changes from being not rolled up to partially rolled up that causes it. Uncivilized may well have it it on the head. If you PM Jim, he can probably make it clear.

The rigger we trust (in Queensland) says if you use it rolled up "a lot", replace the forestay every 4 yrs. He knows that we do this work ourselves, so he does not gain from the recommendation, except we respect his integrity. It broke about 4 " down from the top, which, apparently, is also common.

Ann
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Old 24-12-2015, 15:52   #23
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Re: Loose Shrouds

I'd think instead of scuttling her you would her as a live aboard.
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Old 24-12-2015, 20:41   #24
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Re: Loose Shrouds

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Chris, I'm sorry, I don't understand it well enough to explain. However, fwiw, we were told afterwards that it is a common failure, and there is something about how the loading changes from being not rolled up to partially rolled up that causes it. Uncivilized may well have it it on the head. If you PM Jim, he can probably make it clear.

The rigger we trust (in Queensland) says if you use it rolled up "a lot", replace the forestay every 4 yrs. He knows that we do this work ourselves, so he does not gain from the recommendation, except we respect his integrity. It broke about 4 " down from the top, which, apparently, is also common.

Ann
Ann, thinking on it, when a jib's partially rolled up, there generally tends to be a good bit more headstay sag than when it's fully unfurled. So as a result, the angles where the wire enters the end terminals are more acute. IE; bent further than the norm. And are repeatedl work cycled at this harsher angle, with each wave strike. Especially up top, as that's the only exposed section of bare wire.
AND, you're putting more load on the ends of the wire, as the furler section (stiffened by a partially wrapped sail), is a lot stiffer than a bare piece of wire, or a headstay with a Tuff Luff would be.
So again, more load, right at those weak points.

Plus, folks will fly a partially furled up jib in stupidly strong winds. So that load alone is big. But when combined with the Huge drag from the furled up bit, wrapped around the foil = more eccentric loading on the wire, especially at the terminals.

Note: Realistically speaking, a jib should only be rolled up about 30% of it's J anyway, before rolling it up fully, & shifting to another (smaller) sail. As at that point, it's shape has gone to crap anyway. That & you're getting into wind strengths which are Rapidly accelerating it's demise.
IE; flying it in higher winds than it was designed for, beats the s*** out of it. Even high modulus wonder cloths.

Also, when you think about it, a furler, plus a wet jib on a 40'er can weigh close to 100lbs. Which, when you're punching through stiff seas every 6 seconds, surely gets things moving back & forth with some real force. Fully furled up, or half furled.

While with a purpose designed, high wind jib,on hanks, or in a Tuff Luff, the headstay will be freer to stretch & flex in a normal manner. But when you wrap a sail around a furler foil, the whole headstay/foil/sail system is much much stiffer, & less stretchy. So all of that energy has to go somewhere, & you can guess where.

Some of my saying this is based on the stiffness of material sections vs. their thickness/diameter. As in solid materials, stiffness varies with the cube of the thickness. So if your double something's thickness, it becomes 8x stiffer. And in a cored material, it's a squared function.

The math on tubes (foils) & wires is a bit different, & I don't know how to calculate it, exactly, to be honest. Especially when one has to factor in that rolled up sail on top of the foil. But likely it'd be closer to a cubed function, as furlers have solid metal inserts, with slim holes in them for the rigging wire, at every joint of the furler's foil.
=> Many of such joints being made of steel, of some flavor, with non-beveled (svelte) entry & exit holes for the stay. Which add to wear on the wire, via the steel on steel thing. Plus their being choke points/collecting points for salt & grime. Thus accelerating stay wear in those spots.

Bottom line, a furler with a semi-furled sail on it will be a LOT stiffer than the rigging wire inside of it. And thus, likely impose more loadings on some bits of the wire. In addition to the extra weight of the furler & jib, of course. With furlers alone, commonly weighing 1.5 - 2x or more, of that of a headstay by itself. And, then there's the extra windage thing... And it's always going on 24/7, thanks to Neptune & Aeolis
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Old 24-12-2015, 21:03   #25
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Re: Loose Shrouds

She is a really beautiful boat. Her lines and interior layout are what attracted us. If I can get her home I will refit and fix whatever. It is more than being cost effective it is our connection to her and my desire to have a sailboat like her again. That said the problem is a retired teacher does not have a whopper of a pension but in my home of Bay St Louis Mississippi I can afford to do the work and pay for what I can't. So I am going to try my best to get us both home. I have not survived this long by giving up easy. So far everybody I've talked to about yard space and work are way outside my Mississippi budget. Even a haul out round trip is about 4 -5 times MS prices in CT. The motor is new just finished the brake in running in a barrel. If she will not dump the mast on my head I will make it.
(I was not serious about "scuttle" Ann just P O)
I do have enough experience on the water to know what the trip entails.
I worked on MS river push boats as a lad, sailed on merchant freighters as an ordinary seaman to work my way thru college. Lived on a Hunter 30, sailed an Out Island 40, for a charter company, have owned and sailed a 24, 23, & 22. And 30 - 40 yrs ago even had a 50 ton license.
Just cause i'm 73 doesn't mean i'm finished or a fool. I have taken everyone's comments to heart. I appreciate the support and hope to deserve it,
Thanks James
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Old 24-12-2015, 21:24   #26
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Re: Loose Shrouds

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmczzz View Post
oh and the tow it on a trailer is not an option as I do not have one and to hire it done is way to costly. If she is suffering from any major problem I might just have to scuttle or abandon her. Do you know the legal ramifications of those options?
thanks James
I know of a few folks who've scuttled boats, after removing all of the sellable bits. And anything which would contaminate the environment. But they also did it where the water was 1/4 mile+ deep, & their boats were joining a few IACC boats in the same locale. Which were lost to Neptune, involuntarily, during some America's Cup races.

I can't say that I commend it, but if you do it in the dark, & in deep water, ain't nobody gonna' know.

That said, one possible, positive option, is to donate the boat to an organazation either designed to accept old boats (Sea Scouts & such). Or just to a charity which accepts vehicles & boats. Since, if she's truly dead, & if they have free labor to disassemble the thing. Then at a minimum, all of her; fittings, furnishings, deck gear, spars, & lead, are worth something. Probably a few $K, minimum.

Or, there are even boat graveyards, like the one in Bellingham, WA. Which also does a good bit of business selling the various parts & fittings off of the boats which they must crush up.


PS: James, you posted while I was composing. But one option, to fix her up, up there, using mostly your own labor. Is to move her to something like a light industrial business park, & live in a camper or small motor home, which you pick up on the cheap on Craig's List.

I helped friends rebuild a big Searunner trimaran on the cheap, that way. And they even bought (temporarily) a modular metal building, in which to setup a workshop. It took him all of a week to set it up, alone (@ age 65). And was like 25'x25', with a big, roll up door on the front side, in addition to the regular door. So, plenty big for projects & work tables. And they sold it & the camper, for what they paid for them once the boat was launched.
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Old 26-12-2015, 11:51   #27
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Re: Loose Shrouds

JM,
If you know the boat has no structural issues that will effect tensioning, reuse your "stretched" wire with Norsemen or Stalok fittings. They have many options with longer/shorter studs to accommodate your particular needs. They are easy to install and bulletproof. Also, wire is very easy to inspect and many sailors(without good reason) replace their standing rigging when it is perfectly usable. This is, especially, not necessary if the boat is primarily a daysailer and will not be used offshore. If your mast is down, pull and label each wire and carefully inspect the swages and wire for rust, broken strands, etc. If it looks o.k., spray the length of the wire with WD40 or PB Blaster and let it soak into the strands. Then carefully wipe the wire with a lint free rag. Measure your new fittings and install. Reuse those wires that are o.k. and step your mast. Now, you can float your boat home. We once had two boats: one in Florida and another on Lake Michigan. We replaced our rigging on the Florida boat after 15 years. Our smaller boat on Lake Michigan still had the original standing rigging that was 20 years old when we sold it and the swages and wire were still in excellent condition. Hope this gives you another perspective. Good luck on your project.
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Old 26-12-2015, 15:15   #28
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Re: Loose Shrouds

rognvald,
Thank you, for the positive spin. So far every comment has been how the mast, deck, compression post or shrouds are all bad and I.m suicidal for trying to make it to the Gulf.
I've been looking at inflatable dingys, kayaks and such so I will not have to swim for it if the mast falls. Cause I just don't have an option but to try and patch it up and get her home.
thanks, James
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Old 26-12-2015, 15:19   #29
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Re: Loose Shrouds

PS, even a "prof. boat survivor" told me that shrouds "don't stretch" and I had a boat problem. He said he would do a complete survey for $600 - $700. and $95. an hour for the 4 hour round trip to come do it.
Oh what a guy! geez jmc
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Old 26-12-2015, 15:24   #30
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Re: Loose Shrouds

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I'd think instead of scuttling her you would her as a live aboard.
Sell her as a livaboard that is.
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