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Old 12-11-2010, 22:17   #16
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If the question is..Can you cruise with a junk rig? The Yes you can. Is it the end all and be all of sail rigs..No. Many have cruised very well with Junk rigged boats, but it does have its negative side.
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Old 13-11-2010, 10:55   #17
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Thanks all. Lots of good points. How bout on a motorsailer? My thought would be that in that case you wouldn't "have" to sail to wind, and could use the Junk Rig only the way it was best served.
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Old 13-11-2010, 17:39   #18
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At that price you can't go wrong. Try it for a few years and if you don' like it, you can easily convert it to a bermuda rig , for cheap given the amount of gear available for macaroni rigs.
I talked to a friend who was a junk rig fan, today, until he went sailing on a contessa this past summer. He is no longer a junk fan after seeing how much better the contessa was to windward and how much simpler it was.
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Old 13-11-2010, 19:02   #19
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There's also alot of missinformation out there about the rig (like it is inherently poor to windward, slow or somehow causes of leeway). Do your research and as always, check the source. Remember every one thing in boat design is a trade off for something else.
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Old 13-11-2010, 19:04   #20
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At that price you can't go wrong. Try it for a few years and if you don' like it, you can easily convert it to a bermuda rig , for cheap given the amount of gear available for macaroni rigs.
I talked to a friend who was a junk rig fan, today, until he went sailing on a contessa this past summer. He is no longer a junk fan after seeing how much better the contessa was to windward and how much simpler it was.
Brent,

You talking about the Ganley?
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Old 13-11-2010, 22:37   #21
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I had a Colvin aluminum 34' schooner, with traditional gaff rig both masts. I once had the opportunity in Hawaii to sail a sister ship, identical hull, with chinese lug rig schooner, also Colvin design rig. There did not seem to be a lot of difference, except my gaff rig had a bit better windward performance. For ocean crossing I used a square sail on the foremast, which would be difficult with the chinese lug. For those about to say the gaff schooner would not go to windward, I beg to differ. It took me a while to learn to sail her. I eventually sailed her up channels where most boats only went under power. I once took her under the raised portion of a floating bridge against tide and wind. It was hairy, and wildly exciting. Great sailing. I am not sure I could have done that with the lug rig. Most boats which are seen to have poor performance are the result of design errors or building errors or both. The rigs themselves all seem to work fine, if designed, built and sailed well. No single rig is perfect. You can easily build traditional rigged boats far cheaper than marconi rigs, but they won't keep up with a fin keel, spade rudder sled. You pays your money and you takes your results.
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Old 14-11-2010, 06:00   #22
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MichaelC I think you have some very good points. You mention learning to sail your gaff rig effectively. The junk rig has few of the conventional signs for sail trim, they don't luff. With the very efficient verticle luff and no mast to disturb the boundery layer, not to mention a flat cut sail with battens-more like booms- that must be full for shape, the wind is on one side or the other. Period. That same efficient luff will keep drawing closer to windward than when the hull stalls (and in rigs that are sheeted to windward rail-Colvin style- can potentially achieve a rearward thrust). Pinching has a whole new meaning and is hard to detect by our western learned standards. As Tom says, the first thing you have to do to learn to sail a junk rig is to unlearn what you have learned about conventional sailing. You also mention that hull style effects things greatly, marconi, gaff, junk, whatever. A long shallow keeled "traditional" design is going to have less windward ability than a deep fin keeled boat. In Tom's trials of the same hull form with different rigs (sailed by one who knows how to sail them) he notes no difference to windward between gaff and junk other than it is probable that the junk will carry full sail longer in impending conditions that require reefing because it is reefed so easily and will set more sail earlier after the conditions change the other way for the same reason-just raise or lower a halyad, no course change, no reef points to tie or slabs to tension or otherwise secure. Yes, the jib headed marconi gains slightly into the wind (on the same hull form). But around the mark, on any other point of sail the gaff and the junk pull away. The junk is ussually designed to have more square feet in it's rig (without adding another sail) again, because it is so easily reefed. So if you are planning on bashing tight to windward (throughout history not a thing to do in sailboats hence the sailing routes that have developed and quite often avoided for comfort sake) then perhaps the deep keel and marconi rig are for you. If you want to change sails with every wind change and add them and subtract them when on different point of sail, have at it. If you want to have a boat that balances well on different points of sail then a low and spread out sailplan like traditional gaff or junk with a long keel might be just the thing. If you are willing to relearn trim and want a sail that takes little force per square inch of cloth (being spread out on multiple booms) requiring inexpensive and longlived service (the chinese used grass mats), is easily handled shorthanded, doesen't require winches or other expensive proprietary equiptment to operate, as someone pointed out earlier-where to jibe is a non event because the sail is ballanced (a portion in front of the mast that acts as a force damper), a rig that you can scramble up like ratlines if you need to...check out the junk. It has many advantages if you see them as advantages. All depends on what you're after. To me having an inexpensive rig (sail, mast, rigging) that is easily and inexpensively built, repaired and subject to less forces, is not cripled by a tear if it does happen (even a pannel blowing out won't render the sail useless), can be made of material that doesn't degrade in the sunlight, carries its sail above deck bent on, ready to go (and doesn't require substancial space below) and is easily and conveniently handled all make it close to the ideal rig for cruising...but my idea of cruising is probably different than other's as evidenced by all the plastic fantastics, marconi rigs, high tech and expensive masts, sails and equiptment required to build, maintain and handle them. Don't get me wrong, I love sailing them! Just returned from a wild ride from Nantucket to Bermuda on a 50' tri hull. Increadible! But I wouldn't want to own one. Aside from putting me in the poor house (the list of repairs from our less than three day trip was impressive) I have little interest in relying on the equiptment needed to operate and maintain one...not to mention the time spent repairing it which often means replacing because you can't just make the part...and waiting for the parts and pieces to get there.
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Old 15-11-2010, 15:30   #23
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Brent,

You talking about the Ganley?
yes. I'm taking about the ganley for $16K
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Old 15-11-2010, 15:45   #24
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You definitley have a mast on one side of the sail, creating turbulence from it , the rest of the way aft, unavoidably. Junk sailors tell me that is why they sail far better on one tack than the other.
On one tack the sail battens bend in the direction you want, for a good camber . On the other tack it bends in the opposite direction, with the camber in the direction you don't want.
They also tell me that the sheer weight of the rig, with all it's lines and battens,limits how high you can go, and the max sail area you can get on one.
Allen Farell built the traditional junk China Cloud which is moored next to me at the moment. He was going from Scotty Bay on Lasquetti , 6 miles south , to a gathering of cruisers, etc. In a 15 knot southeasterly. He beat all day, ended up back in Scotty bay, then beat all the folowing day , only to end up back in Scotty Bay again, then gave up, He said in his last boat, a ketch called Native Girl ,it would have been one tack out and one back in to complete the distanc, in an hour or two,.
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Old 27-11-2010, 09:14   #25
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Allen Farell built the traditional junk China Cloud which is moored next to me at the moment. He was going from Scotty Bay on Lasquetti , 6 miles south , to a gathering of cruisers, etc. In a 15 knot southeasterly. He beat all day, ended up back in Scotty bay, then beat all the folowing day , only to end up back in Scotty Bay again, then gave up, He said in his last boat, a ketch called Native Girl ,it would have been one tack out and one back in to complete the distanc, in an hour or two,.
I'm giving this rig some thought despite the horror story above. What's driving me is that I have a fine sailing boat now that I think will still sail reasonably well to windward with the lug rig due to the fin keel, spade rudder and 4' draft. Topside, I don't have a Cal25 any longer due to deck replacement and addition of trunk cabin to provide liveaboard headroom.

What concerns me is while the cabin looks OK visually, I'm not remotely impressed with the construction. I've already reglassed the cabin with WEST Sys but I'm still concerned. The way the PO had it all set up, my first thought was if an accidental jibe would take the cabin top with it at the MS traveler? So that had to go and did. Now, I've come into some mast/rigging issues and in another post with pics, a couple of responders commented that it was a "hack job". I have to sadly agree.

The thought of a free-standing keel-stepped mast forward of the trunk cabin is a welcome one. I think I can deal with the horizontal forces at the deck level much easier than the compression forces on the cabin top. Another plus is dinghy storage on the cabin top, where there's not enough room at present for a nesting dink.

The boat is cradled next to my RV and shop so I can make a wooden mast myself easily and cheaply. And what I read about junk sails suggests that I can do that too, possibly with my home machine. At 68, and sort of retired, I have the time to do this over the winter. I wanted to be in the keys this winter but for me that's a been there and done that deal for 20 years as a younger guy and off and on since so another winter here is no big deal.

What I don't have is stacks of money. As it stands I could splash the boat in the next few weeks but I'll have to buy a RF genoa. I think with the money saved from not doing that, and possibly selling my mast, boom, full batten main, whisker pole, Harken furler and maybe a couple of winches (I have 7), I could have some real money left over.

I don't see much of a down side beyond a loss of some windward ability. No way am I going to lose it all. And the promised ease of handling is a good thing for an old guy like me. Besides, I used to be a purist but the Yanmar diesel was high on my list of what I like about the boat. The reduced resale doesn't concern me at all. For my purposes, the boat has no resale value. I paid under a thousand for the boat with all the gear and old but running diesel. I plan to live and die on board this vessel cruising the keys and Mexico/Central America.

Am I overlooking something obvious? Comments welcome.
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Old 27-11-2010, 09:30   #26
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Old 27-11-2010, 11:09   #27
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Am I overlooking something obvious? Comments welcome.

I've got a whole 20 mintes in single handing someone elses boat so I'm a complete newbie. I too have the junk rig bug. The folks who do the junk rig all say the same thing . get Annie Hills book. here is the wiki on her. Annie Hill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I am waiting delivery on a 22 Venture by MacGregor w/ trailer, its traditional Bermuda rigging. (see my blog in signature. )If the right comparable, preferably wood hulled, junk rig came along, even it it did not have one sail on it, that I could trade even for her, I'd do it in a heart beat and she has everything but halyards and a motor, with only one spot of fiberglass that needs to be fixed way above the water line. All she needs is a good cleaning, some minor (IMHO) redo's because of her age, and cosmetic work. The point I am trying to make is , if you have the junk rig bug give your self the respect of at least exploring it. Your logic on why you want to do this is the same as mine. Try it. You may or may not decide in favor of it but at last you will know one way or the other.

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Old 27-11-2010, 11:16   #28
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Junk rig has big chafe issues, heave to issues, reefing (gears) issues, placement of mast forward more refit issues, and the myth that you can make your own sails out of old used diapers.
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Old 27-11-2010, 11:28   #29
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For me, a serious argument against junk rig is the one detailed by Brent Swain, above. For those of us who were fortunate enough to know Allan and Sharie, this episode is a telling one. At the same time, the Colvin junk rigs apparently do very well. A combination of foul currents and winds can leave an engineless junk rigged boat [or gaff or marconi] staying put when you would rather not. China Cloud was engineless and for a while, lee board rigged. It is my impression that junk rig and beamy western hulls do not go well together. Likewise, junk rig and long full keel hulls do pretty well. Colvin's Gazelle is perhaps the ultimate in junk rigged, seaworthy, weatherly cruising vessels. I know people simply put any rig on any boat and hope it will all work out. It often, however, does not. Research, research, research.
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Old 27-11-2010, 12:30   #30
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If junk rigs sailed better to windward or cheaper to use or were easier to sail then why have they not swept the market. The common comment is that modern sailboat design is driven by racing priorities. But people who sail work boats have also not gone that way and the vast majority of sailboats never race.
There are people now building junk rigs that are chorded sails and they appear to be very efficient but far from simple and inexpensive and robust.
Race boats , to do well must sail efficiently to weather as well as other directions. It also must not break. Working boats have the same criteria.
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