Outboard Motor Woes (8hp, 2 Stroke)

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by pbiJim

All jokes aside, what do you have against 4-storke outboards? I kind of thought that they were the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Fair question! For us it would be no problem at all. For a friend who purchased a 9 HP a few years ago that weighed well over 100#s, he could not find the other three men and a boy every time he had to remove or install it. I have a davit crane that picks up my 110 Avon 10RIB along with a 72# 8HP 2 stroke plus fuel, oars and what nots that folks normally keep in their dinghies.

OH, friend exchanged the overweight beast for a 6HP single cylinder that weighs 30#s less. THE TWO STROKE IS DEAD, LONG LIVE THE TWO STROKE. Thanks to Carol Browner, EPA Administrator under both Clinton and George W, the old reliable 2 stroke is condemned to the history bins. That @#$%^& witch even wanted to install catalytic converters on lawn mowers!

[mr-canada]

I looked up on boats.net to see what the whole lower assembly would cost. Free, because the part is obsolete and unavailable (0 in stock). Just the two gears alone run $320 plus all the other little parts. Not sure what is damaged in there and what would have to be replaced, a lot of the other parts are obsolete as well. Seeing as the prop is stuck on with corrosion and i cant buy a replacement housing or prop i think this motor is now.a make work project for a bored mechanic who os qualified.

Oon the 2 stroke vs 4 stroke debate (interesting to me because im now in the market for a new motor) i find mixing gas to be a pain in the neck. Its not difficult to do but sometimes i have forgotten if the gas in the auxillary jerry is already mixed or not and have accidentally double mixed and poured it into the main tank causing a lot of smoke and fears of fouling the plugs. Not an easy.problem to remedy at sea.

Are you using E15 fuel down there? Up here superior fuel has no ethanol and many stations sell no ethanol fuel at all. Its not advertised in bold letters but mariners tend to know where to get ethanol free fuel if you ask around at the docks. Highest ethanol blend you get here is E10.

Mercury did a powerpoint on E10 for marine applications and said pretty bluntly that E10 is an excellent marine fuel that burns cleaner and the ethanol acts as a solvent that actually cleans the engine better than E0. I tend to buy the E10 fuel because that station is closer to the boat and ive never had problems with clogging, albeit my motor is a 2 stroke and your primary appeal for 2 strokes is that they dont get clogged with ethanol.

[mr-canada]

. THE TWO STROKE IS DEAD, LONG LIVE THE TWO STROKE. Thanks to Carol Browner, EPA Administrator under both Clinton and George W, the old reliable 2 stroke is condemned to the history bins. That @#$%^& witch even wanted to install catalytic converters on lawn mowers!

I havent heard anything about a ban on two.stroke boat motors, with exception to certain lakes that are watersheds. What did browner do? Obviously im in canada so i dont follow us regulation unless it makes international news.

[SkiprJohn]

Originally Posted by mr-canada

I looked up on boats.net to see what the whole lower assembly would cost. Free, because the part is obsolete and unavailable (0 in stock). Just the two gears alone run $320 plus all the other little parts. Not sure what is damaged in there and what would have to be replaced, a lot of the other parts are obsolete as well. Seeing as the prop is stuck on with corrosion and i cant buy a replacement housing or prop i think this motor is now.a make work project for a bored mechanic who os qualified.

Oon the 2 stroke vs 4 stroke debate (interesting to me because im now in the market for a new motor) i find mixing gas to be a pain in the neck. Its not difficult to do but sometimes i have forgotten if the gas in the auxillary jerry is already mixed or not and have accidentally double mixed and poured it into the main tank causing a lot of smoke and fears of fouling the plugs. Not an easy.problem to remedy at sea.

Are you using E15 fuel down there? Up here superior fuel has no ethanol and many stations sell no ethanol fuel at all. Its not advertised in bold letters but mariners tend to know where to get ethanol free fuel if you ask around at the docks. Highest ethanol blend you get here is E10.

Mercury did a powerpoint on E10 for marine applications and said pretty bluntly that E10 is an excellent marine fuel that burns cleaner and the ethanol acts as a solvent that actually cleans the engine better than E0. I tend to buy the E10 fuel because that station is closer to the boat and ive never had problems with clogging, albeit my motor is a 2 stroke and your primary appeal for 2 strokes is that they dont get clogged with ethanol.

Our club just bought a new Mercury 6hp 4 stroke. The dealer said that if we did use E10, it clogged the carb after letting it sit for any amount of time the warranty would not cover repair. He also recommended running the engine dry each time we use it. He knows what has happened locally with E10 fuel. So, different information about Mercury engines.

I've seen what E10 fuel can do to a carburetor is it is allowed to sit in the bowl. It is an orangish, yellowish goo that does not disolve and clogs the jets. I don't use it and run the carb dry each time I use a small engine.

[nimblemotors]

Originally Posted by Therapy

Nice!!

How long before it kills a battery?
Will it plane my Jon boat?

I can't remember how much power it draws, I just used it for docking,
the boat was trailered, just day sailed with it, so battery was never an issue.

It might plane a small boat. I made it with an extra long shaft for the sailboat.
I used parts from the controller for another project,
but perhaps I will dig it out and get it working again.
It was my first electric power project.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

I can't remember how much power it draws, I just used it for docking,
the boat was trailered, just day sailed with it, so battery was never an issue.

It might plane a small boat. I made it with an extra long shaft for the sailboat.
I used parts from the controller for another project,
but perhaps I will dig it out and get it working again.
It was my first electric power project.

Pretty cool DIY.

[pbiJim]

I assume that you have seen the torqeedo.
Torqeedo Cruise 2.0 R Electric Outboard Motor

[CarinaPDX]

Older 2-strokes can be damaged by ethanol because the rubber used in the fuel system fails, often quickly. The newer 2-strokes were adapted for ethanol so less of a problem. For all small motors it is best to get ethanol-free gas, which is usually available for marine and off-road use - at least in the states. It may take some looking.

As far as the old Mariner, it does sound like it is past its prime. A mechanic might be able to rescue it if he happened to have another one of similar vintage to swap parts. Best to just get on with it.

There is a difference between banning the use of 2-strokes, which is not that common, and banning their sale. Sales of 2-strokes has been effectively banned in both the US and EU for a decade or so for environmental reasons: they emit too much unburned hydrocarbon. This also explains the lower fuel efficiency. But the light weight and simplicity make used ones worth considering.

Greg

[perchance]

You mention metal on the drain plug, is it filings or flakes? Filings are normal wear but flakes are an indication of internal damage. The fact that it jumps out of gear tells me the teeth on the shift dog and or the ramps on the gears may be badly worn, providing the shift linkage was properly adjusted. The base for the water pump has seals and O-rings to seal it from the gear case and could be shot. A complete water pump kit comes with all the seals required.
Prop shaft seals are a common leak point on stern drives and outboards often caused by picking up fishing line. If the prop shaft has a groove worn in it from the seals you can often shift the seal position slightly to avoid the worn area.
I have purchased used gear sets form E-bay with good results.......so far.
The motor is worth fixing if you can get decent used parts as the new parts often exceed the value of an older engine.
Don't give up on it yet.

[sy_gilana]

Mr Canada, the brown goop is oilywater emulsion. This was what I warned you about when you pulled the driveshaft out of the bottom, the seal is damaged.
Also the detente position of the lever and its associated throttle interlock is merely a matter of synchronizing the actual gear posn, with the lever, by adjusting the length of the shift rod. But I am repeating myself.

Re-do the job, now replacing the seal for the drive shaft. I have never seen a lower unit off a motor without the drive shaft sticking up out of it.

I do not know that model intimately, but have worked on hundreds of outboards, specifically Yamahas. That 2 cyl 2 strok 8HP is a great little runner. Things were fine until the impeller needed changing. The problems started when the lower unit was pulled away without disconnecting the shift rod.

It is fixable.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

There is a difference between banning the use of 2-strokes, which is not that common, and banning their sale. Sales of 2-strokes has been effectively banned in both the US and EU for a decade or so for environmental reasons: they emit too much unburned hydrocarbon. This also explains the lower fuel efficiency. But the light weight and simplicity make used ones worth considering.

There are some exceptions, but not in what most manufacturers call "portables.". Evinrude's E-TEC 2-stroke outboards are readily available; apparently they pass the EPA thresholds. But their smallest is 25-hp.

-Chris

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by mr-canada

Are you using E15 fuel down there? Up here superior fuel has no ethanol and many stations sell no ethanol fuel at all. Its not advertised in bold letters but mariners tend to know where to get ethanol free fuel if you ask around at the docks. Highest ethanol blend you get here is E10.

It varies slightly by area, but E10 is the norm around here. Some places have ethanol-free, but I'm only aware of one station in MD (for example), about 50 miles from water, that sells ethanol-free.... and that's actually leaded gas, intended for the "old race car" (and street rod) market.

FWIW, I've found E10 works like a champ. Until it doesn't. When I use the motor a lot, it's great. No adverse impact at all, assuming the motor is new enough to be rated for E10. When the gas sits in the tank too long, though, it goes south -- phase separation, water in the carb, no startee- clean out carb, repeat until completely frustrated.

Actually. once I started managing ME it got significantly easier. Starting with a piece of tape on the tank with date of gas via Sharpie. Add stabilizer (and oil, for a 2-stroke) to fresh gas right away.

Run the motor as normal during period of high use (but be sure the tank vent is closed when not in operation, so ingesting moisture (e.g., from overnight dew) doesn't add to the problem). Not even particularly necessary to run the last bit out of the carb. No problems.

But when the motor won't be used for more than 3 weeks... run the carb dry, drain both inboard and outboard tanks (siphon out and recycle in a car), remove the tape labels, relax until the next period of use.

Repeat.

-Chris

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by sy_gilana

Mr Canada, the brown goop is oilywater emulsion.



.

I agree but........

I had a Johnson 4 hp from the 80s. We were on a little local cruise and I decided to check the lower end oil. Aaahhhh, dang. Brown, thick, augh! I drained it out and bought a bottle of Johnson lower end oil.

It was...........







ready?








Brown and thick.

[JPA Cate]

Mr. Canada,

If you have the heart for it, get yourself a manual for your motor, not only the instructions, but the "exploded" views as well, make learning to work on them much easier than just getting advice.

If you want to become a cruiser all the mechanical skills you can learn will benefit you hugely.

Ann

FWIW

[mr-canada]

The gear shift rod is a single peice, no linkage for adjustment. Tabs on the shift lever guide the shift lever to click into place at the proper position. My mechanic last year found that the shift lever would not put it into gear in the normal position but managed to get it working, he told me that before the next season the lower leg should get a full service because he couldnt get the prop off to take a look in there due to corrosion.

The gear oil last year was nonexistent when he serviced the engine. It was high pressure water and metal shavings, the water came out silver. He pumped it full of gear oil (it was blue) and we did ok last season.

So i think the gasket down there was already part shot. I saw some coffee cream colored bits coming out of the prop at idle and figured it was unburned oil at the time (new boat, motor to me).

Where i probably finished the job on this lower leg was in putting it back on the boat the first time. While i tested forward and reverse gear by turning the prop and watching the flywheel before putting it back on the boat for a test, somehow in transit from the vice to the boat the gear shift rod became disconnected from the lever and free. It probably bounced around on the gears when i got her running to test the impeller, grinding the works down there even further. I shut it off immediately when i realized what was happening but i still had it running for a few minutes.

No doubt the powerhead on this motor is great and runs like a champ, problem is i need an entire new lower leg assembly to make it run like new and they do not sell the assembly anymore. The gears are $150 each and the clutch dog is $75, the rest of the parts range in price but some of those are discontinued as well and given that there are 70 some odd parts to the assembly replacement could get close to a grand if a lot of studf down there is worn or corroded. Add to that either my time trying to learn how to get the corroded prop off (the housing itself is discontinued as well) and put it all together... Well you get the point.

Either way im off the water due to this motor for the rest of the season and last year it gave me issues that i spent $400 fixing between parts and mechanic time. Add the parts, mechanic time from last year and probably mechanic time to rebuild the lower leg, it exceeds the value of a lease return motor.

Plus, i just dont trust this beast anymore after all these problems. I need to count on this thing to work and im at the point where i feel i can count on it to not.

If any of you yanks are dying for a small two stroke the us manufacturers are literally dumping them all in canada, sierra club is wailing about it but our government here today makes george w bush look like a rabid environmentalist they didnt do anything and cut the tax exemption status of the sierra club as a response. Or if you want you can shoot me a few bucks and come get it and take your chances on making it work.

This motor at this point, im afraid is a mechanical project for a mechanic to tinker on and fix up for their own benefit. It could be made to work right fast if you could find a similar enough model with a dead powerhead and decent lower leg. But given that its a 30 year old motor that is probably a quest that only someone who doesnt need it to work soon would want to take.

Im lookng at a 2013 yamaha 4-stroke high thrust with a five year extended warranty on top of the 3-year that comes with the motor. This way i can ensure it will always work because i will follow the factory maintenance schedule like clockwork and if anything goes wrong i can drop it at the dealer and tell them to fix it and hand them a copy of my maintenance log, oil change schedule, etc.

If you have a love for two strokes and dont want to see this old bas**rd at the bottom of the sea or given to my mechanic for near free, feel free to make me a small offer and come get it. After two summers in a row with a variety of engine problems, ive had it with this thing. Sorry to sound negative but i want to be out sailing into interesting places not spending my vacations learning small marine engine mechanics. I dont mind dabbling its interesting and a bit fun but fumbling through a lower leg rebuilding aint much of a vacation.