New Engine - Same 4.107 over heating problem.

[joesail]

Originally Posted by Mikado

"Ordered a factory reman complete engine from Foley Engines in 2014."

Just curious, where has the engine dealer been thru all of this. I would think that they have installers and service folks that could identify the problem with their engine under warranty?

Well the dealer is going to be no help. The engine sat in storage for over a year (not the original plan) and the warranty expired before installation. I tried talking to the owner at Foley ENgines about the overheating issue. He is condescending and an ass to deal with. I don't recommend doing business with this company.

I'm on my own with this one.

[joesail]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

If we're talking about the F/W circulation pump I agree. Not so sure about the water pump">raw water pump, but that is a positive displacement pump and could well pump at 17 psi+. Not to say that that is the problem though.

The issue with diagnosing things from afar is the dynamism of the interacting systems. I tend to agree that the likeliest culprit is the head or head gasket, but there are several unanswered questions.

Are the overheating problems you had with the original engine the same as the ones you're having with the Foley rebuild?

Was the Foley engine complete, or did you use ancillary components from your old engine, like the exhaust manifold or heat exchanger?

If you do decide to pull the head, I would do it methodically; i.e. have the components that you have to pull off to remove the head checked first before you go to the next item. A defective or leaking heat exchanger or exhaust manifold can have the same effects you're describing, so it makes sense to check them before moving on to the next (expensive) item.

How is the engine running otherwise. Is it smooth and clean burning with no misses or is it rough and smelly and steamy, or somewhere in between?

This is interesting. The problem is the same as the old engine except not quiet as bad. I could only turn about 1500 RPMs before over heating with the old engine.

There are however absolutely no parts on the new engine that were on the old. I replaced everything.

You bring up a definite possibility though if you are correct. Are you sure that a leak in the exhaust manifold could generate 17+ pounds of pressure? I asked Foley Engines and several other folks if this was possible and was told that much pressure could not be the exhaust so I ruled out the manifold as a cause..

The manifold is a rebuilt Bomar manifold / exchanger combo so a crack in the manifold could easily inject pressure and gasses into the coolant header tank.

If this could cause the excess pressure then I maybe I should have it tested before the head.

What are your thoughts?

[Perna]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but a few thoughts and going back to basics, sort of.

A propellor cannot cause an engine with an adequate cooling system to overheat.

The freshwater cooling circuit is closed so how can a faulty exhaust cooling system directly affect its temperature?

The fresh water circuit just needs to flow enough and be cooled enough. Stupid question probably but are the water pump and the cooler correctly dimensioned? Is it a standard set up? You did have the problem with the previous similar engine.

Sorry not to be of more help.

Best of luck.

[Mikado]

You have a ton of great information from CF members but if it were me at this point I would contact the gals at Trans Atlantic Diesel. There is no one that knows more about Perkins 4.107-4.108 then them. Their number is
(804) 642-9295.

Jeff

[Capt Gill]

I don't think this has been mentioned in the thread yet,nor have I read it anywhere else,this is from personal experience, it's regarding the end caps sealing the raw water off from the engine coolant (this is the smaller of the two clamps on each rubber end cap). Unfortunately the video is unavailable,I get this from Youtube "This video is unavailable" – it would have helpful,anyway given that the raw water pump can attain pressure twice as much as the pressure will be at engine operating temp. and even a larger difference when cold,so in your case there's a strong possibility of pushing the raw water past the end cap seal(s) into the engine coolant. If you're in salt water it's easy to check – does the coolant taste salty (don't swallow) ? The heat exchanger should be exactly centered and the clamps adequately tightened then tighten again after running engine. Use the best clamps possible – I use 316 s/s w/built in tension springs. Looking fwd. to what solves your issue,good luck.
Jack

[Wainui]

I have a 4108 in a 25k sailboat
It has a 17" 3 blade prop.
RPM in neutral WOT is 3600
WOT in gear is 2900
Cruising RPM 2500
Originally temp at 2500 was around 190/200 degrees
I changed out the 12" HE to a 17" HE. Temp is now about 165 at 2500 RPM
I just did a 6 month Mex cruise with up to 36 hrs motoring with no problems.
I am getting 1.3 gallons per hour.
Now if I could stop the oil leakage I would be very happy!
Good luck!

[joesail]

Originally Posted by Capt Gill

I don't think this has been mentioned in the thread yet,nor have I read it anywhere else,this is from personal experience, it's regarding the end caps sealing the raw water off from the engine coolant (this is the smaller of the two clamps on each rubber end cap). Unfortunately the video is unavailable,I get this from Youtube "This video is unavailable" – it would have helpful,anyway given that the raw water pump can attain pressure twice as much as the pressure will be at engine operating temp. and even a larger difference when cold,so in your case there's a strong possibility of pushing the raw water past the end cap seal(s) into the engine coolant. If you're in salt water it's easy to check – does the coolant taste salty (don't swallow) ? The heat exchanger should be exactly centered and the clamps adequately tightened then tighten again after running engine. Use the best clamps possible – I use 316 s/s w/built in tension springs. Looking fwd. to what solves your issue,good luck.
Jack

I did wonder if that was possible. I haven't tasted my coolant but my coolant has not changed colors at all that I can tell.

[Cheechako]

I think looking at the seals etc in the heat exchanger is a good idea.
Which may explain the bubbles in the coolant.?
BTW, as I remember , some early heat exchangers on that engine are famous for overheating. Later ones were ok.

[joesail]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

I think looking at the seals etc in the heat exchanger is a good idea.
Which may explain the bubbles in the coolant.?
BTW, as I remember , some early heat exchangers on that engine are famous for overheating. Later ones were ok.

The original engine had a small exchanger on the back of the engine. I upgraded to the bowman PE180 combination manifold/exchanger/header tank with the new engine.

[joesail]

Originally Posted by joesail

The original engine had a small exchanger on the back of the engine. I upgraded to the bowman PE180 combination manifold/exchanger/header tank with the new engine.

Are you thinking that there is an updated model of the boman that has better cooling for this engine?

[slowpoker]

I am now actually looking at a Bowmar heat exchanger/exhaust manifold and it looks slightly different than the picture in your above post #54 in that it does not have those two threaded holes in the upper compartment,(water tank side). instead, it has two raised bosses there with no holes.
It is the PE180 and says BOWMAN in large letters cast into the aluminum next to the bronze label that reads...the date of manufacture as 11/ 83 when built. Also has the same DR12 in raised letters also in the casting on the exhaust side. The capacity of the water side looks to be the same as in your picture. Should have the same size tube bundle also from the looks of it.
Maybe those threaded holes are for the water heater in your case and can be used to purge any air in the coolant system in your case.

[jimbunyard]

Now we have something to go on and can form some hypotheses.

I still think that the similar heating problem has a similar ultimate cause, but now we have an idea of a main part of the system, and how it might interact with other parts...

First, I would discount (for now at least) cracks in any part of the HE/manifold.

Second, the seal of the boots on each end of the HE is what keeps the fresh water and salt water from mixing; they must be tight, the bundle must be properly positioned, and the seal between the H/E bundle and the rubber (the small hose clamp) must be perfect.

While we're on the H/E seal subject, a leak there (between the F/W/R/W side) could result in higher-than-normal F/w side pressure, but it wouldn't explain air bubbles, unless you had an issue on the vacuum side of the R/W pump...

So, presuming that on a new engine there are no sealing or mechanical problems, after you ensure that there are no leakage issues within the HE/manifold, a good place to turn would be preexisting conditions.

And to me, that would mean an oversized prop (or one that appears to the engine to be oversized) or exhaust restrictions.

Regarding the prop, it could actually be oversized, or friction from an improper alignment or worn components could be contributing enough friction to overload the engine.

The potential for exhaust restrictions doesn't stop at the exhaust elbow.
If you have a water-lift exhaust, an excessively long, excessively high or undersized run of exhaust hose could cause a portion of the exhaust to feed back through an imperfect raw water heat exchanger seal (incidentally the same general path it would take from a cracked manifold), which could result in both air (actually exhaust) bubbles and higher pressure in the HE.

Another source of restriction is an excess of RW flow into the water lift which will displace the area available for exhaust and could contribute to overheating. The fact that you have a new, free flowing HE bundle would tend to support this.

So a kinda summary hypothesis could be that there is no individual
cause of your problem (though there could be), but that it is the combination of several smaller contributing factors that are the ultimate source of the overheating.


We had the same problem with a TAMD41 that we finally resolved with 4 steps down on our initial propset selection (A4 from A8, Volvo doesn't rate it's Duoprops with numbers for pitch and diameter) and the addition of a tee off for a 5/8'" bleed-off (or pisser) at the point where raw water was injected into the exhaust elbow. The pisser exits on the starboard side; an added benefit is the visible evidence that the RW pump is working, as well as the current state of the impeller...

Took us about six months to sort it out, so before you start pulling a new engine apart, have a go at trouble shooting and minor (relatively) modifications. The option to replace the head gasket is always open...

[roberttigar]

Originally Posted by Zhyachts

Cooling water is injected into the exhaust manifold through a small section of threaded pipe. Once in a while this "half nipple" has an overly long threaded section that reaches into the manifold and blocks cooling water.

Zhyachts...where is this threaded pipe (half nipple) you refer to? Bob

[joesail]

jimbunyard. Sounds like you have seen your fair share of cooling issues. Do you have any tips for how to eliminate each one of those possibilities?

1. I think I have good seals on the bundle. I have re tightened them and I dont see any dilution to the coolant to suggest raw water is being forced into the coolant chamber on the HE. I assemble the HE myself and I did not see any need to align the tube stack. I slid it in and clamped the boots down to the tube stack before clamping the boot to the HE. If there is an alignment process I missed it.

2. Exhaust obstruction theory: There might be something to this but I don't know how to test for obstruction. The old engine had a 3 foot lift mufler and I upgraded to a verna lift muffler with a exhaust that is a little bit shorter lift. The hose and mufler is 2.5 inches I believe and is the same diameter as the rest of the hose that routes to the stern. I have good flow out of the stern with a very forceful blast about every two seconds. I have been assuming that this was favorable behavior as it is way more water than the previous setup.

Another member suggested that I pull off a hose and check for water flow volume. If someone could tell me how much is enough volume I could pull off the hose from the mixing elbow and start the engine for about 60 seconds and catch the raw water in a bucket. Would it help to measure on the exit side of the HE?

[jimbunyard]

First things first.

Go back and check the alignment of the heat exchanger bundle within the manifold. I'm betting that the large holes in the bundle are not aligned with the corresponding holes in the exchanger. There may also be a small 1/8-1/4" bleeder hole in the center of the bundle to allow air to get out; it may be that there is only one hole, which would mean, if the bundle were installed back to front, that the bleed hole is on the bottom, which would not allow adequate cooling water into the bundle, which would allow the air in the upper (unbled) part of the bundle to boil, which could result in both the increased pressure and the bubbles...