Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

[valhalla360]

Sorry should have said that better: The price won't come down TO WHAT YOU THINK IT IS WORTH until he feels it enough. If they guy has tons of money that might take another 4yrs. Never said he was rational.

Again the tax write off is bluster. The IRS has cracked down on fabricated values especially for big ticket items. Anything on that price level is going to be looked at closely. If he takes a $500k boat and lists it as $1.5mil for tax purposes, the IRS will eat him alive.

[Dauntlessny]

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

"The price won't come down until it sits long enought for him to feel the real price. As long as he keeps getting offers for ever higher amounts, he will sit tight and bluster."

The boat has been for sale for over four years - thus my original question.

I can find old ads and listings from back then for $1.2M on the US East coast. Over the next three years the offering price dropped to $875K, $650K, and finally $525K.

I think the market has spoken very clearly about the value it assigns to the boat.

My understanding, which is limited and based on 2nd hand reports, is the charity will keep the boat and use it in a educational program.

IRS regulations allow deduction of "fair market value" deduction up to 50% of the taxable income. That value is established by a NAMS or other licensed/certified appraiser in a written and notarized letter to the IRS. The top federal IRS tax rate is 39.5% and is 12% in California. Therefore, the maximum deduction could be 51.5% of the established value. And, on that basis I think my offer was worth a lot more than the tax write off, which to my non-attorney/account mind, would have to be less than the current offering price.

"Any less than that and I've politely suggested the buyer look at some other yachts closer to their budget.."

That is a curious statement to make. If the only two offers received over a four year period are 30% below offering price - then I would suspect the offering price is a bit too high. Are you saying any owner can set any price they wish, no matter what the market will pay, and you will only accept offers near the otherwise ridiculous offering price?

Doesn't seem realistic to me!

Sorry i got into this late. Actually attracted due to your Lisbon statement.

But, why are you even spending time to think about, let alone write the tax advantages if he donates the boat.

You and Ex-Calif seem to have made some very good points about this boat that clearly you want, but clearly don't want badly enough.

To try to get into the mind of the owner is simply pointless.

With the caveat, that i know nothing of the Cat market, with the price drop you have seen over the last three years, this scares a lot of buyers away. if not scared, then they assume the price will continue to fall to a point the current owner will pay someone to take it off his hands. Does that make sense? Clearly not, but it does play into the market with a price that continually falls.

You sound like you have done so much research. What is the market for 2003 51' cats? Is the current asking price in the ballpark?

If so, then stop dicking around if you want this boat.

It sounds like both you and the seller want to make the absolute best deal with will mean NO DEAL.

[TacomaSailor]

"To try to get into the mind of the owner is simply pointless."

So True!

I called the charity that was to have received the boat to see if I could purchase it from them.

They said that the boat donation was cancelled at the very last minute.

All I now know is that the owner didn't even want to hear my latest offer which was well within Monte's guidelines of acceptable negotiating.

I guess it is time to call the deal dead. ...

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

The boat has been for sale for over four years - thus my original question.

Sometimes things in life ARE really as easy as they appear.

The boat has been for sale for over four years because he doesn't want to sell it.

Then his ego puffs up with your "insulting offer" and he basically tells you, "I would rather give it away than let you have it for that insulting price".

You my friend are not dealing with logic, but ego....time to move on take that great boat you have now back South and have all that extra money left over for land travel and trips to Europe. The Euro just hit 1.08 to 1 so I'm stocking up for this June's trip myself.

The two things you don't fight are gravity and Ego.
Both will cause things to fall down.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

I guess it is time to call the deal dead. ...

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Sometimes things in life ARE really as easy as they appear.

The boat has been for sale for over four years because he doesn't want to sell it.

Then his ego puffs up with your "insulting offer" and he basically tells you, "I would rather give it away than let you have it for that insulting price".

You my friend are not dealing with logic, but ego....time to move on take that great boat you have now back South and have all that extra money left over for land travel and trips to Europe. The Euro just hit 1.08 to 1 so I'm stocking up for this June's trip myself.

The two things you don't fight are gravity and Ego.
Both will cause things to fall down.

Yep.

As the donation to charity has been cancelled he may have realised he was being stupid, or maybe seen this thread

I would let the broker know your last offer stands if the owner changes his mind and then let it go, start looking elsewhere.

In all seriousness, have you considered my earlier comments around the Schionning Designs? Schionning Designs - Leaders in Multihull Design and Kit Development

[nimblemotors]

Ok, so you made the low offer, it was rejected, time to move on. Did you see this $200k 50ft power cat in Seattle? But they will take your low offer!
And frankly, if you haven't traveled the USA already and seen what is has to offer, I'd consider doing that first.
50' CATAMARAN/HOUSEBOAT , BEST LIVEABOARD/CRUISING

[smj]

Or this http://www.catamaransite.com/Perry-A...-for-sale.html

[colemj]

Originally Posted by smj

Or this Perry/Antrim 52 Catamaran for sale

I've been on that boat. They were in Colombia for a time. For those who haven't clicked through the link, it isn't a "Perry" catamaran, it is a catamaran designed by Bob Perry (same names, but WAY different boats). I think this is the only time he ventured into multihull designs. It is a beautiful design.

I know the ad says it had a refit recently, but unless that was a VERY extensive refit, the price is way too high. When I was aboard in 2011, it was a bit rode hard and put away wet. I also think it went through a dismasting shortly after.

But it is a stunning looker, a real surprise from the designer, and a go-fast build. If it is in good shape, meets the OP's other requirements, and there is wiggle room on the price, then this would easily be in that Brazapi's league, if not above it.

Mark

[smj]

I believe it's designed by Bob Perry and Jim Antrim, Antrim has designed some descent performance multis. It's in our neighborhood so I've dinghied by a few times, looks really nice. Word has it that it could be had for a good price. But what is a good price:-)

[Ex-Calif]

All in all I think this deal is "close" to closing. There are many ways to close a deal. The stress and posturing buy buyer and seller are typical.

In a perfect market buyer and seller will reach a deal and we will know the value of this boat.

Negotiating strategies on both sides can vary widely. Sellers strategy to "not accept" further lower offers indicates he is at his perfect price or wants you to come up a lot closer to his perfect price. I think ultimatums are errors and think he has made an error. The second error was threatening donation and then withdrawing it. He revealed a lot there.

He has waited 4 years and seen a lot of price reduction. He may be monitoring CF and seeing how much you are agonizing over this.

If he is he knows you have the means.

It may not have been the best strategy for you to lay your heart out in public and it may not have been a good strategy for him or his broker to let you know what charity he is working with.

With regards to you getting the boat you want and the financial security you want, I wish you all the best. In regards to watching a big ticket negotiation unfold, it's fascinating.

BTW - I am not a salesman but I have been on the periphery of mulit-billion dollar deals in my role. The points given or taken are worth millions. There is no difference in what you are doing. Knowledge is power and you have all the knowledge you need. You have to assume he does too.

Cat and mouse - At the end of the day it's gonna boil down to, "Is it worth it to me and to him."

[Sand crab]

I remember the pics from that Perry Antrim when it was for sale a couple of years ago. Some of the hatches were leaking and stained that beautiful woodwork. I guess the current owner fixed the leaks and decided to paint it white. It is a cool boat.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

Interesting you suggest that. I have been trying to talk my wife into an N46 for years. I would love to have one!

My wife's attitude is that a good 45'+ sailing catamaran will have a pair of 40+ HP engines and will motor faster than an N46 and will also be more full efficient. When the wind is "Nice" she can sail and when it is not - we can motor.

Adagio has a pair of Yanmar 74 HP engines and motors at 8.5 knots at about 1.5 GPH. That is 1.7 knots faster than an N46 and about 1 GPH less fuel burn. And, when need be, Adagio can motor at 11 knots for quite a while on those big fuel tanks.

Wife says "sailing cat or no new boat"

THREE CHEERS FOR THE WIFE!!. You are lucky to have a women who loves sailing that much. Usually its the man trying to convince his better half that it needs to be a sailboat.

(just reading thru this thread in the order of the postings)

[TacomaSailor]

"And frankly, if you haven't traveled the USA already and seen what is has to offer, I'd consider doing that first. "

Thanks for the suggestion but - Been there ... done that.

Went to elementary school in four different states.

I've been blessed with the opportunity to have spend more than a month at a time working in almost every US city with a population of more than 500,000. Back then I was a six to eight mile a day runner and covered hundreds of miles of small streets and roads.

I've live and worked in:
Seattle
Tacoma
Bellingham
Portland
Sacramento
Concord
San Ramon
Santa Rosa
San Francisco
Los Angles
Boise
Denver
Dallas
Austin
Minneapolis
St Paul
Green Bay
Chicago
South Bend
Champagne....

Boston
Hartford
Stamford
NYC
Washington DC
Raleigh...

etc.

My wife and I have lived on the water or within 1/2 mile of the water for 38 of the last 41 years and will probably continue to do so.

The catamaran you show - Princess Cristina is docked at the marina we kept our boat in for 2006 - 2010.

[TacomaSailor]

"In all seriousness, have you considered my earlier comments around the Schionning Designs? Schionning Designs - Leaders in Multihull Design and Kit Development"

thanks for the idea but I have no interest in a build it project. The suggested designs are beautiful but we are not light weight cruisers. We would load down those great boats and turn them into pigs.

The only one for sale in North America is way too spartan for our needs or interest at this point in our lifes.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

We've been married close to 41-years and our decision making has settled into a groove that is not too stressful for either of us. Bottom line, my wife hates to make a change and even more, hates to make BIG decisions if things are otherwise going well. I, OTH, am always trying to change or improve everything in life. I hate static ideas, thoughts, and life.

She and I must talk and negotiate a bit to get past our very different approach to life.

- I come up with outrageous ideas
- She tells me how dumb are my ideas
- We discuss my dumbness
- I determine her essential concerns
- I modify my ideas
- She learns more about the "goodness" of my idea
- That process goes on and on
- I eventually figure out her non-negotiable issues
- I determine how to change my ideas to accommodate those issues
- WHEN I am sure I have addressed those issues I MAKE THE DECISION

I have to be very careful that I do know her non-negotiable issues before I push the decision and I am not there yet on Adagio.

The discussions here are helping me see things from her perspective and from the perspective of experienced big catamaran owners.

I will also accept comments from significant others who have learned how to make decisions that are seemingly opposed by the other party - ONLY if you are still in the relationship and in good (well survivable) standing.

I got a big laugh out of that one ,... sounds like me and my Thai wife. But I've only been married to her for 7 years, and we are not always in the same place....part time Thailand, part time USA.