Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 30-09-2013, 10:37   #46
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Out cruising
Boat: Bruckmann 50
Posts: 521
Re: Professional Boat Reviews- Is it me?

I am just amazed that some find this surprising. If you have been on CF for any length of time you will remember that we have professional mariners that can't agree on interpretations of the COLREGs. The "Hunter" threads have to tell you that people cannot agree in any way about what is and what is not important on a boat.

How could any "professional" reviewer do anything but tell you what he/she liked about the boat and what they didn't. It would all be subject to considerable personal bias usually related to what they liked in their boat not what they think others would like. Boats are not commodities that can be reviewed like this. They are personal objects that can have in-depth analysis of what is included on each but for any reviewer or publication who is trying to appeal to a broad audience to take a side in the debate of what is "better" seems silly.

We don't see professional reviews of houses either for the same reason. Even though many are built by the same contractor off the same plans they are all different. Some things appeal to some people and other not so much. If CF has done nothing else it should have taught us all that.

Jim
__________________

__________________
jkleins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2013, 10:46   #47
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,866
Re: Professional Boat Reviews- Is it me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkleins View Post
I am just amazed that some find this surprising. If you have been on CF for any length of time you will remember that we have professional mariners that can't agree on interpretations of the COLREGs. The "Hunter" threads have to tell you that people cannot agree in any way about what is and what is not important on a boat.

How could any "professional" reviewer do anything but tell you what he/she liked about the boat and what they didn't. It would all be subject to considerable personal bias usually related to what they liked in their boat not what they think others would like. Boats are not commodities that can be reviewed like this. They are personal objects that can have in-depth analysis of what is included on each but for any reviewer or publication who is trying to appeal to a broad audience to take a side in the debate of what is "better" seems silly.

We don't see professional reviews of houses either for the same reason. Even though many are built by the same contractor off the same plans they are all different. Some things appeal to some people and other not so much. If CF has done nothing else it should have taught us all that.

Jim
Even with commodity items, it's no different.

The Big 3 all make 1/2ton pickups (by the hundreds of thousands each) and if you ask 3 people, you will get 4 different answers on which is best. You will get people arguing if Chevy is better than GMC, even though they are exactly the same minus the badges.

Also, if you see an award shown in the advertisement, you can bet, they paid to use it in the advertisement.

Anyone who can't grasp the relationship between manufacturers and the media can expect to be taken. The rest of us take what is printed with a big grain of salt and read between the lines.
__________________

__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2013, 11:01   #48
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Out cruising
Boat: Bruckmann 50
Posts: 521
Re: Professional Boat Reviews- Is it me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Anyone who can't grasp the relationship between manufacturers and the media can expect to be taken. The rest of us take what is printed with a big grain of salt and read between the lines.
But what that implies is that there is overt corruption/collusion between mags and manufacturers. I think it is even more subtle then that. It is very unlikely that a mag survives if they took a side on every "Hunter debate" that comes up. They are sure to piss everyone off at some time or another and then they have no readership. I think they avoid controversy to maintain that readership as well as the advertising.

I just give them the benefit of the doubt that they are not corrupt. I think they are just doing what many organizations do that have people who disagree in them. Avoid difficult issues. It doesn't make them right but it doesn't make them corrupt either.

Jim
__________________
jkleins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2013, 11:16   #49
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,866
Re: Professional Boat Reviews- Is it me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkleins View Post
But what that implies is that there is overt corruption/collusion between mags and manufacturers. I think it is even more subtle then that. It is very unlikely that a mag survives if they took a side on every "Hunter debate" that comes up. They are sure to piss everyone off at some time or another and then they have no readership. I think they avoid controversy to maintain that readership as well as the advertising.

I just give them the benefit of the doubt that they are not corrupt. I think they are just doing what many organizations do that have people who disagree in them. Avoid difficult issues. It doesn't make them right but it doesn't make them corrupt either.

Jim
I don't know if collusion is the proper term but since the bulk of reviews are opinion based, there isn't much you can do about it from a legal perspective. Now if they start putting out factually incorrect information, that's a different story.

What they generally won't do is get into debates/comparisons between manufacturers (at least not in any serious manner. Ocasionaly, they will throw out a problem that really isn't a problem just to appear balanced.). They generally provide seperate stand alone articles.

Since the bulk of profits comes from advertisement, that is where thier focus is. Obviously, they can't go too extreme without risking alienating readers but that is because advertising rates are a funciton of the number of readers.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2013, 11:20   #50
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,924
Re: Professional Boat Reviews- Is it me?

The mags are not corrupt, they simply have low journalistic standards when they do reviews...its a business decision and probably the right one. Bad news sells but not when you are manufacturing something. Remember just like your current evening news these mags are selling entertainment. Don't expect them to criticize the people that put bread on their table, if you do there is a word for it...naive.
__________________
robert sailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2013, 12:31   #51
Registered User
 
Julie Mor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 401
Re: Professional Boat Reviews- Is it me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Care to explain your logic on why a 5yr rated item would fail in 2yrs?
Not my logic. That was taken from the article.
__________________
Julie Mor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2013, 12:40   #52
Registered User
 
Dulcesuenos's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Florida Keys, Bahamas Bound
Boat: 38' French Cat
Posts: 2,828
Images: 4
Re: Professional Boat Reviews- Is it me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasco View Post
Now used boats are a completely different matter - condition, condition, condition.
Couldnt agree more, We have walked away from several boats over the years, and most recently a Privilige39 for issues caused by neglect from past prior owners. We started out so excited, the prospect looking for a newer much bigger cat, then after about the 7th cat that was twice the price but each of them needed windows resealed, delmaniation, headliners, vinyl wall trim, and wood, all needing replacing due to leaky windows and hatches, most also needed rigging, sails, electronics, and more, we became seriously bummed and that we are thinking of keeping our smaller cat as its in "cruise ready" condition. I dont think its as much an issue of poor construction in the last 30 years, as it is how are they maintained.
__________________
Dulcesuenos is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2013, 13:08   #53
Registered User
 
Sand crab's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Boat: 34' Crowther tri sold 16' Kayak now
Posts: 3,157
Re: Professional Boat Reviews- Is it me?

Most of those Boat of the Year awards can only go to a new boat and a new design. It's the same with Motor Trend and cars. There are not too many new cats each year so the field is very small. Who wants to read a review about an old boat? But, they are there. too.
__________________
We don't need no stinking badges.
Sand crab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 03:42   #54
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Martinique on route to Tasmania
Boat: Catana 42
Posts: 134
Re: Professional Boat Reviews- Is it me?

Hi Andy goodluck with the boat buying!

Having just gone through 18 months of research, reading and looking at different catamarans we found the process very frustrating at times to compare each brand to the other. It would have been ideal to read reviews that compared all brands based on similar criteria but I presume many factors make this difficult.

Often when reading magazine reviews I felt they should claim conflict of interest as they felt so sugar coated sweet.

As buyers it was forums and private websites that became the best place for us to find out the overall view of the different catamarans we where looking at. In the end we have purchased new but getting to the final decision was not easy at times.

I have given two reviews of the boat we purchased a Catana in comparison to a Seawind 1250 on our website but being new and lacking experience they are based on my level of experience and research. However maybe this is the future that more owners, charter hire and sellers give respectful and honest views as people give book or holiday reviews. Not sure how to deliver but wouldn't be to hard to set up by a site like CF with framework page for people to complete information on each boat with rating.



Cheers the Miss
Homepage | Miss Catana
__________________
The Miss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 05:03   #55
Registered User
 
Teknav's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Texas - USA
Boat: Twin Otter de Havilland Floatplane
Posts: 1,838
Re: Professional Boat Reviews- Is it me?

I think the intention of the original OP is to find out why there's no discussion of engineering designs among boats, including performance. I assume that he/she is trying to find out why PC's, iPods and similar toys are technically scrutinized to the nth degree by electrical and computer engineers, but no such a thing is done for boats.

A boat's performance is tied up to the laws of physics/marine engineering. To maximize performance and affordability, the quality of materials used enter the equation. Most sailors/buyers do not look at the engineering facet of boat building in depth; you'll need an engineering degree. They look at the cost and, if a used boat, how maintenance was done. Because of this lack of interest in technical knowledge, advertisers and brokers concentrate "on looks" rather than the performance among similar boats.

Mauritz
Simplicity and elegance through engineering.
__________________
Retired - Don't Ask Me To Do A Damn Thing!
Teknav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 05:48   #56
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,924
Re: Professional Boat Reviews- Is it me?

Fact is that the average sailor does more due diligence when buying a flat screen TV than he does buying a new boat. Builders know that appearance is very important to male buyers and #1 with women so their emphasis goes in that direction. If you asked the average buyer of a new boat how many layers of glass there were in the hull(recognizing it varies) virtually none would know. If you asked the average buyer of a new boat how easy it was to remove the diesel engine for repair 90% would not have a clue. Builders are very aware of this and concentrate their marketing efforts into short little sound bites of how strong and wonderful and hi-tec their construction is and brag about the certification it has and they know that in the end that is all that is needed with 90% of their buyers. Boats are bought from the heart there is little logic around when the deal is done!
__________________
robert sailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 06:08   #57
Registered User
 
Mike OReilly's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 4,023
Re: Professional Boat Reviews- Is it me?

It's kinda funny, but before we bought our used boat (1977 Rafiki) I reviewed as much info as I could find about the build quality, including studying the actual design blueprints (which we own). I can tell you exactly how many layers goes into our hull, deck, and every other aspect of our boat. Having the blueprints are an invaluable resource when working on our boat.
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
BLOG: www.helplink.com/CLAFC
Mike OReilly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 06:30   #58
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,924
Re: Professional Boat Reviews- Is it me?

Mike you fell into the 10% catagory
__________________
robert sailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 06:49   #59
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Martinique on route to Tasmania
Boat: Catana 42
Posts: 134
Re: Professional Boat Reviews- Is it me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Fact is that the average sailor does more due diligence when buying a flat screen TV than he does buying a new boat. Builders know that appearance is very important to male buyers and #1 with women so their emphasis goes in that direction. If you asked the average buyer of a new boat how many layers of glass there were in the hull(recognizing it varies) virtually none would know. If you asked the average buyer of a new boat how easy it was to remove the diesel engine for repair 90% would not have a clue. Builders are very aware of this and concentrate their marketing efforts into short little sound bites of how strong and wonderful and hi-tec their construction is and brag about the certification it has and they know that in the end that is all that is needed with 90% of their buyers. Boats are bought from the heart there is little logic around when the deal is done!
Hi Robert

As to buying a boat with less investigation than buying a flat screen TV I actually laughed out laughed - really!

I think you need to give the modern buyer a little more credit. The issue is access to quality information that is relevant, given in a format that the layman or woman new to boats can understand and can be used to differentiate one boat from another and make good decisions.

My gripe is that it is very difficult to compare and find sources that are not tainted by self or commercial interest.

As a female of the species I will say ouch - no I don't know much about layers of glass, nor moving a diesel engine - but I went out of may way to find out as much as I could with the information and resources to me.

To throw 90% of buyers in to such a large bundle of apparently ignorant shallow buyers is harsh if not grossly unfair.

Yes boats and almost all big purchases come down to matters of the heart but heart is only part of the equation. Sometimes you don't know what you don't know, but most of us do our best to make good decisions. Also at stake is safety and plenty of money when buying a new boat.

Maybe as a new boat owner and new to the ocean I am confused and in the wrong place.

Cheers the Miss
Homepage | Miss Catana
__________________
The Miss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 07:02   #60
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,924
Re: Professional Boat Reviews- Is it me?

Don't take any of my opinions personally, you know what they say about opinions? They are like that hole in our bum, everyone has one!

I'm a highly social person and I go out of my way to meet people. I've been around sailing longer than I can remember and its been my experience talking with new boat owners that the majority of them don't know a lot about their new boats other than the info on brochures.
Yes, The Miss it is very difficult to get real detailed information but I have always found a way to get what I think I need to make an informed decision. Keep in mind not every bodies idea of "informed" is the same. In my experience it usually takes me months to get all the info I'm looking for on a boat type I'm not intimately familiar with.
__________________

__________________
robert sailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
reviews

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:27.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.