Nautitech Open 40

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by yeloya

The pointing ability with dagger board is superior but the difference is not huge.

Superior, but not huge. That's actually not a bad assessment. Definitely superior. Not just a little better, but superior. VMG upwind can be another distinction, which requires superior pointing ability to be maximized, plus less friction via less wetted area. But to this point, board boats do not sail themselves upwind. To exploit the advantages of the boards you have to now how to sail upwind.

The biggest downside is initial cost and the loss of payload (app 500-600 kg fo 45-47 ft cat). It's also true that the galley becomes significantly narrower.

Well, of course, the impact on the galley doesn't exist unless it's a galley down design. And the space taken up by a dagger board trunk is typically where an unnecessary extra head is located on most charter-style boats.

But I'm really interested in the basis for the 500-600 kg payload penalty? Sounds high to me. I have my boards out at the moment and can easily weigh them. Easily carried around by two people. For sure the trunk structure is additional weight, but all together 500-600 kg? Now if this is a net difference vs keels, this amount must rely on the additional buoyancy that hollow or foam filled keels contribute. Don't forget that this is more mass which isn't "free" in the performance department. F=ma Otherwise, why not just run that keel the full length of the hull to really get more payload?

Dagger boards are something that I would definately consider if I plan to sail in high lattitudes; with the boards up such cat can skid away with big waves from the beam whilst the cat with a fixed keel can be tripped over. Also higher mileages on long passages would make a lot of difference.

Why is that logic limited to high latitudes?

To address smj's comment, most Catanas of the vintage of mine do indeed have skegs ahead of the saildrives that are deeper than both the drives and rudders. However, mine does not. So yes, that is a vulnerability I have to be mindful of. It makes me a better cruiser knowing my rudders are my curb feelers.

As I offered previously, choosing boards may not be right for many cruisers, if not most. But this decision should be made on legit reasons rather than marketing by those with vested interests.

To this end, a few other cons not yet mentioned:

Despite claims to the contrary, I do not consider board cats easily beachable. Of course, some do it. I do not think this is an option for me. Even if my boat had skegs like other 471s, the footprint is too small to support much weight on any surface that will subside, like sand. I would have to do it in a location with some drop off under the rudders to prevent them from carrying any weight.

Blocking after haul is easier on keel cats. Just set them down. Add a couple jack stands fore and aft. And if hauled by a travel lift the straps don’t have to be under the keels getting in the way of setting them down. When my boat is blocked it has to be done more carefully to make sure the blocking is under the structural bulkheads. Fortunately there are plenty to pick from and Catanas are better hauled from the chainplates – no need for straps that would otherwise occupy a bulkhead location, eliminating it from use for blocking.

Finally, not having keels prevents an owner from extra practice applying bottom paint.

Dave

[brainmaker]

and I could not express the feeling experienced better than

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCPLZOHfL-Y

[2Hulls]

Similar to the Nautitech 40 video, the Gunboat was in flat water. Those teacups would be flying on an open ocean passage with any kind of speed. Impressive, still....

Dave

[brainmaker]

....... and now for the competition

TS 42 catamaran - Catamaran and trimaran news from Multihulls World - multihulls-world.com

Catamaran TS42 - Chantiers Marsaudon Composites

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by brainmaker

....... and now for the competition

TS 42 catamaran - Catamaran and trimaran news from Multihulls World - multihulls-world.com

Catamaran TS42 - Chantiers Marsaudon Composites

Uggh. I love sexy modern high performance cats, but I can't love this one. Interior design by IKEA and a helm seat that is both terrifying and will lead to a permanent krick in my neck trying to look forward.

I also strongly prefer a retractable or swinging bowsprit for purely financial reasons when it comes to paying for mooring.

Luckily, these few complaints would be pretty easy to fix, I suppose. The raw hull form is dead sexy.

[arsenelupiga]

when conditions are strong sea moves and daggerboards help little.

I would be anxious sailing in strong wind/vawes windward with draggerboards deep down. If you pull them up, then you better up with fixed. Manufacturers request to pull up daggerboards in strong conditions for a reason, so, in strong condition daggerboards not advantage. Even liability if windward track required.

regarding L400... Was in 3-4 feet chop 40 deg windwards 7-8 kn in 25 kn wind No squeaking, leeward shroud not loose whenever I looked. This i was impressed with and gives me quite a bit of confidence in boat.

Still getting to know the boat. I find it slow but other boats monos or cats no better

I did manage to tweak sail to get it real nice but this are fine touches I am learning. It is not boat slow/fast, there is also skipper, that makes is faster/slower.

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

when conditions are strong sea moves and daggerboards help little.

Well, if true, why would stubby keels not be similarly affected?

I would be anxious sailing in strong wind/vawes windward with draggerboards deep down. If you pull them up, then you better up with fixed.

You would be right to be anxious, if not foolish. That's why board sailors incrementally raise boards as boat speeds increase. Faster speeds, more lift, boards don't need to be as deep. Indeed, there's a risk of breaking boards if left too deep at higher speeds. They become long cantilevers.

Manufacturers request to pull up daggerboards in strong conditions for a reason, so, in strong condition daggerboards not advantage. Even liability if windward track required.

Huh? Not much sense being made here. Care to provide an example of such manufacturers' statements? If you're referring to raising boards to prevent "tripping" in breaking waves, that's an advantage of boards.

Dave

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by 2Hulls

Well, if true, why would stubby keels not be similarly affected?

Of course they are affected. I am saying daggerboards have less advantage when sea running. Still do though.



You would be right to be anxious, if not foolish. That's why board sailors incrementally raise boards as boat speeds increase. Faster speeds, more lift, boards don't need to be as deep. Indeed, there's a risk of breaking boards if left too deep at higher speeds. They become long cantilevers.

you are talking downwind, i was thinking about upwind sail



Huh? Not much sense being made here. Care to provide an example of such manufacturers' statements? If you're referring to raising boards to prevent "tripping" in breaking waves, that's an advantage of boards.


what i was referring to is going windward in very strong conditions. If you dont want to break daggerboards must raise. I believe I have read this in manual for Catana 431 as i was seriously considering buying it. In this situation fixed one better as there less chance to break because stronger.

Dave

catana 471 is great boat

[2Hulls]

Perhaps we're talking past each other or there's a language challenge.

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

Well, if true, why would stubby keels not be similarly affected?

Of course they are affected. I am saying daggerboards have less advantage when sea running. Still do though.

I still don't know what you mean. If you're saying boards have less advantage in heavy seas, I don't agree. I would expect the sea state affects both keels and boards upwind, not necessarily one more than the other. But heavy seas definitely "affect" boards less off the wind because the boards would not even be deployed off the wind.

You would be right to be anxious, if not foolish. That's why board sailors incrementally raise boards as boat speeds increase. Faster speeds, more lift, boards don't need to be as deep. Indeed, there's a risk of breaking boards if left too deep at higher speeds. They become long cantilevers.

you are talking downwind, i was thinking about upwind sail

No, I'm talking upwind all the time when referring to use of boards - I very rarely use mine when apparent wind is more than about 60*. Further, boards do not have to be only fully down or fully up. I very seldom use mine all the way down - only with low boat speeds and/or flat water. No need for full boards as boat speed increases and better not to shock load them upwind in heavy seas by being deeper than they need to be.

Huh? Not much sense being made here. Care to provide an example of such manufacturers' statements? If you're referring to raising boards to prevent "tripping" in breaking waves, that's an advantage of boards.

what i was referring to is going windward in very strong conditions. If you dont want to break daggerboards must raise. I believe I have read this in manual for Catana 431 as i was seriously considering buying it. In this situation fixed one better as there less chance to break because stronger.

What you read in a Catana 431 manual is the same as what's in the 471 manual: full boards up to 8kts boat speed, then half boards above 8 kts. (This is in reference to upwind as boards are not used downwind.) The full or half instruction is very much over simplified. Most skippers realize that the boards are infinitely adjustable and set the depth considering both expected boat speeds and sea states.

Thank you for the compliment on my boat - I am extremely happy with it.

Dave

[downunder]

A link to an old but useful article on multihull safety by Hugo Meyers.

http://hem.bredband.net/mschoon/Ocea...iderations.pdf

[gelliott]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Back to Nauthitecs, they are beautiful catamarans, slightly overpriced but they are faster than FP or Lagoon . I have heard that they are now preparing a new 46 footer.

Cheers

Yeloya

hi Yeloya, you are right I have just seen some marketing on the new 46, it looks great and comes in either flybridge or dual helm options....they showed the drawings at La Grand Motte I believe though I wasn't there....I for one am seriously interested in this boat

[chris in SG]

As a Nautitech owner, it's always good to hear posts about these cats because they really don't get a fair share of discussion here. They just seem to be 'off the radar' in most "best cat?" discussions.

For better or worse, Nautitech has been acquired by Bavaria. It makes good business sense. Nautitech could not compete with the big French yards, though I think they did a great job working independently.

Interesting, I thought, if you look at the website now, the Open 40 is listed under "Bavaria catamaran", whereas the other models are under Nautitech (see attachment) so my guess is that the Nautitech name will be phased out soon.

[BYA2014]

Concerning the Nautitec 40 open:

O.K. On N40
·Reasonable performance.
·Big cockpit
·Nice transition from cockpit to main saloon

Considerations--Not so good on N40
·Twin aft helms. Abandoned by most builders 10 years ago. Restricted visibility. Helmsman out in weather. More suitable for a large crewed boat with professional crew. Controls only on one side. Not supportive of short-handed and couple sailing.
·Dinette inside. Only opposed seating not lounge seating with coffee table.
·Galley does not serve cockpit—faces forward—Way less storage
·Only one relaxing area outside—cockpit
·Less storage generally
·Owner’s cabin head right in the vanity area. Useless sofa—takes away storage.
·Not true island berths
·Less light and ventilation in cabins.
·Furniture in main cabin mostly fiberglass liners. Looks like 70’s monohulls.
·Lesser quality fixtures, fit and finish generally
·Big fiberglass structure in middle of forward facing window restricting visibility. No opening hatches facing forward where the ventilation is the best.
·Much narrower passageways in hulls restrict storage and make them feel very cramped.
·Awkward nav station—doesn’t serve as adequate Nav station, or desk?
·Corporate Ownership has changed recently. Long term commitment TBD.


FP40--considerations--Info Coming June 15, 2015
Similar or better performance—we’ll see
Big cockpit + ability to seat up to 10 at cockpit table.
Nice transition cockpit to main saloon, but additionally, service from galley to cockpit through pass-through
Factory has a long history of success—approaching 40 years with a continuous team.

FP40 additional advantages.
1.Control cockpit makes easy single-handing and couple cruising possible. All controls led here, one person can run the boat. Excellent visibility all around. Helmsman is at deck level and can help with docking the boat, catching lines, etc. Easy conversation and passing of refreshments through to the cockpit from the control cockpit. Creates another social area.
2.Cockpit has more dining space—10-12.
3.Additional relaxing areas forward, and steps from control cockpit to cabin top with room for sun lounge.
4.Galley aft, serves cockpit. Awkward on N40
5.Bigger windows and skylight—more light in all cabins. 3 opening ports in aft cabins.
6.Beds are wider and true Island beds.
7.Owner’s cabin has totally separate head and enclosed shower. More storage.
8.Generally more storage and cabinets in owner’s wing and main saloon. Better suited for live-aboard and long distance cruising.
9.Better fit and finish. Better hardware.
10.All flush deck hatches for easy getting around. Large hatches over cabins plus additional opening ports for great ventilation
11.Easy payment terms in dollars. No stage payments. We arrange simple financing, insurance, delivery and C.G. numbering. The USCG requires a licensed importer properly number the boat. The foreign numbering system is not satisfactory in the U.S. Make sure your “Importer” has the capability to assign numbers and provide all of the other import services necessary.
12.ACY has a commissioning yard facility, adjacent to the factory facility to provide additional pre-delivery services and installations, final checking, etc.
Strong dealer support with #1 dealer in the world based in Annapolis, Atlantic Cruising Yachts. Total custom commissioning and support services. Support with the oldest Business Yacht Ownership program in the world—dedicated to assisting owners get tax advantages and income to own for less, and pay their boat off early. Private boats, managed by private management companies. Owner’s generally planning to convert to personal use in 3-10 years, and/or roll over a first boat for their ultimate boat.

The N40 seems to be geared more as a day/weekend sailor.
The FP 40 is a live-aboard, offshore voyager with actually more social space, larger living spaces, and similar performance. She will serve as an able social platform, weekender, or long-range cruiser—all for about the same or less cost.

[gelliott]

if thats not biased written by a dealer then Im a monkey's uncle! What a load of tosh, "similar or better performance" ??? Since when has an FP sailed better then a Nautitech, only when written by somebody who sells them!

[chris in SG]

Originally Posted by gelliott

if thats not biased written by a dealer then Im a monkey's uncle! What a load of tosh, "similar or better performance" ??? Since when has an FP sailed better then a Nautitech, only when written by somebody who sells them!

+1

Not even having the courtesy to preface comments with "Please note I'm a 'Marine Services Provider'.."

Ohh, by the way, I'm a Nautitech owner, so I'm equally biased..