Help Ranking These Cats

[Factor]

Originally Posted by smj

Sandy, I don't it's fair to group all Prout's and Solaris as 5kt boats. I believe the Prout 45-50 would avg. more than that, and Solaris has a couple of different models including the Sunstar that was designed on the performance side. Other than that I fully agree with what you say.

Perhaps it may be more accurate to say 125 mile per day boats, where as the PDq etc may be 150 mile day boats. I dont think sandy was dissing the boats merely being realistic regarding AVERAGE long term speeds.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Factor

Perhaps it may be more accurate to say 125 mile per day boats, where as the PDq etc may be 150 mile day boats. I dont think sandy was dissing the boats merely being realistic regarding AVERAGE long term speeds.

I understand where Sandy was coming from as most people when they think of the older British cats think heavy and slow. I guess what I was trying to say is that doesn't always hold true. Maybe I'm biased since I own one but the Sunstar comes from the molds of an Eric Lerouge design, a well known performance cat designer. And I believe it was the Sunstream that is an extended Cherokee, a MacAlpine Downey design.
Since we have just purchased a Seawind can you give me insight on the avg. speed of the Seawind?
Thanks A.J.

[tolly]

It's interesting following the different opinions and ideas in this discussion, specially since I've been there myself.
Finding the optimal cat for your whishes, demands, purposes or whatever, I believe is a "mission impossible", since there will allways be various pros and cons that turns you in different directions when you study the cats. I don't have much experience in cat sailing (Lagoon 380 and Prout 50 Quasar), but following the discussions in varios forums, reading litterature in the subject, talking to owners, brokers and surveyors, but most of all THINKING for ourselves, gave a pretty good base to stand on.
One problem though was the fact that every cat owner we made contact with, were convinced that they had the optimal cat for their needs and wouldn't trade it for any other (except if they got the funds to buy and keep a larger and more expensive one).
Our budget was up to 200K, but we have used enough of our time the last 14 years, fixing our old Colin Archer, so we did not want to use a lot of time and money in preparing a cat for the ocean (and by this totally agreeing with Sandy D earlier). For us the primary concern was the seaworthiness (suitable for circumnavigation), the comfort for long time live aboard with occasional visiting guests (large enough), galley up, and also some of the traditional feeling of a wooden boat, giving it a warm and homey feeling. More by a coincidence we "stumbled" on the Prout 50 Quasar and we found it being perfect for our needs. We would have prefeered the newer one with the 23'6 beam, but the few we found was way above our budget. We therefore settled for the 20' beam Quasar and have finally found a very good one that we are purchasing now.
I would say that an important thing for you to do is to take good time to, if you haven't already done it, and make a list of all the musts a boat shall have to meet your demands (it can be a lot), and then check that list when you are comparing the different types.
Going out sailing in a cat to get the feeling is a good idea, but since different cats act differently in the sea, I would believe that the sailing expereince then is more of comparing it to a monohull sailing. As for us, since we didn't have all the time and money, we after the initial sailing experience spent most of the time in contact with various owners etc, to get a more fulfilling picture of the cat life in general and the on different types in particular. It was a matter of asking "the right" questions, and also knowing which are the right questions.
Anyway, good luck with your search.
Rolf

[sandy daugherty]

My first intent was to be sure that the OP had a practical idea of the speed advantage of catamarans, i.e. minimal in his price range. An Erickson 38 is pretty quick, and capable of 150 mile days in optimal conditions, while the very best I've done is barely 200 miles in ONE long day, in heroic conditions, and don't relish the thought of doing that very often!

Quite frankly, I don't know what an experienced Quasar Owner would use for planning a trip, but I think I would very much enjoy sailing one in the Caribbean (fer shure!) I have a bowsprit/screecher that lets me keep up with Extended Seawind 1000s, so I suspect our numbers are similar. That seems to be the case in Texel Ratings. Seawinds and PDQs are a bit quicker than FPs Lagoons and Privileges up to 40 feet, more because we carry more sail and less dross. And, as I've harped about before, the much maligned Gemini MC105 gets away from me in confined spaces!

After too many years on "haze-gray and underway" I don't have any desire to circumnavigate. I do want to revisit the Islands and the western Caribbean, and (surprise) I think the PDQ is perfect for me. However, there's this Maine Cat, and I bought a lottery ticket......

[tolly]

Originally Posted by sandy daugherty

Quite frankly, I don't know what an experienced Quasar Owner would use for planning a trip, but I think I would very much enjoy sailing one in the Caribbean (fer shure!)

Ask me in August this year and I will be able to tell you how a Quasar is on a longer trip, by then I have sailed my "new" one home to Sweden from Florida (if nothing extraordinary comes in the way) with the previous owner coming along on the Bermuda part, and I will after homecoming be a little more experienced in the Quasar's handling and it's performance. Planning for the 4800M with an average of 5kn and everything faster than that will just give me extra time on Bermuda and/ or the Azores.
Rolf

[Ti' Punch]

Escape Plan - I'm the proud owner of an FP Antigua that has been back and forth across the Atlantic several times with the previous owner. (He did cheat once and ship it back from the Med on a cargo carrier, but that was a timing thing, not a lack of confidence in the boat). We hope to make a few passages ourselves in the future, but are currently sticking close to home in the Chesapeake.

I see many posts bashing FP's, but I have no complaints. The boat is light by design, but my decks are all solid. If you look at the older FP's, like the Antigua and the Cassamance, you will definitely notice a difference between them and the newer models like the Athenas. The hulls on the older models are finer and bridgedeck clearance seems to be greater. They definitely aren't as fancy inside, but I'll take the better design over the compromises that have been made for the charter fleets. If you find one in your price range, I would say it is definitely worth your time to investigate.

Here's a link to a site that inspired me to search for my own Antigua. It's a little dated now, but I contacted these people personally when considering my purchase and they had nothing but good things to say about the boat. I have not been disappointed. Good luck in your search.

Ladybug Adventures


Best regards,

Chris

[Ti' Punch]

I make the above recommendation without much knowledge of your plans. Obviously, if you intend to explore the Antarctic ice pack or round the Horn, then an Antigua is probably not for you. If however, you are dreaming of the Coconut Milk Run or a traditional tradewind circumnavigation like I am, then I believe the Antigua would serve you well. I try not to get involved in these "Bluewater Boat" discussions because everybody already seems to have their opinions set. All I will say is that for a traditional tradewind circumnavigation, I think the skipper is more important than the boat. It's all about planning and weather awareness. There are weather events that are capable of overpowering even the bluest of all bluewater boats. The trick is to not be where those weather events are predicted to occur. Take your time, plan your route, and watch the weather. I don't plan on sailing like I have something to prove. I just want to give my family the experience of a lifetime. Okay.... I'll shut up now! Good luck with your search.

Best regards,

Chris

[SV Demeter]

Thanks to all for the suggestions. I knew this would be a difficult topic to make headway on as its like asking folks about what the best anchor system is or whats the best motor oil on a gearhead blog...

I took a look at Florida Yacht Charters and they were more expensive than some of the carriibbean companies, but I guess the airfare would be cheaper. Im not expecting to be able to draw a conclusion on cats from a charter but simply to see what the general motion is like and whether it is appealing to me.

I am hoping to view a Dean 40 in the Florida Keys next week. Am actively reading several reccommended books and trolling this board for testimonials.

I appreciate Sandy's and others comments regarding average speeds, this is an issue for me as I look at other monohulls as well. Most we are looking at are slower than our Ericson (PHRF 114). But that is a compromise we will need to get used to and are balancing it with comfort and seaworthiness gains.

So at this stage we are still looking, hoping to gain some experience sailing a cruising cat, and trying to learn as much as we can about the different makes and builders. Although at this stage I am starting to believe that the budget for what we would want out of a cat is simply not there and that our money will buy a lot more monohull than multihull.

An observation I am having is that there just are not thats many well found offshore cruising cats for sale as they have not been produced for that long. Very few cats built in the 80's that seem worth looking at for my purposes and those built in the 90's and later are for the most part beyond my budget.

Thanks again to all who have posted.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by tolly

....you will have a good chance of getting a lot of boat for the money.
Charles Kanter's book "Cruising Catamaran Communiqué" was also a good help in making the decision and to look at "the right" things when deciding.
Good luck in your search.
Rolf D

Kanter is an advocate of older British designs. I discussed my catamaran choices with him a few years back, and then followed his advice when selecting my Catalac as he sailed one 1000 miles to windward, taking the 'Thorny Path' to the USVI from Florida.

Catalac 12M's can be had in your price range. In the '90's they were called the best live aboard Cat made. Solid fiberglass hulls, twin diesels, good layout. Dated appearances by today's standards yet a solid boat which has survived hurricanes and just as important, Catalac's age gracefully. No delamination issues in a trade off for moderate performance.

I'm surprised they haven't been mentioned in this thread and they were the highest production British Cat with over 600 boats made. They are almost all still sailing as they are an excellent build quality boat..often compared with Hinckley.

From Kanter's book...

Cruising Catamaran Communique
by Charles Kanter

"Catalac catamarans, with over 600 units built and sailing, have probably brought as many hours of happy, comfortable and safe boating to more people than any other vessel. It is hard to find any comparable production vessel that has so well achieved its design objectives. One that comes close is the monohull, Morgan Out Island series, the most popular cruising boat ever."

[jpemb7]

Talking about British designs. I looked over a Broadblue 385 yesterday. I never really liked the look of the older Prout designs and I've gotta say they carry on that tradition with the 385. The square boxy shape just doesn't really appeal to me.
But inside is a different story. Excellent saloon, well laid out and huge for 38 foot boat. As a cruising boat Prout have got it right in the 38 foot range. Let's face it (imho) no cat without daggerboards is going to sail well to windward. If you stuck those same keels on a monohull it would slide sieways, why would it be any better on a catamaran ? The aft mast position, full headsails, small main, simple sheeting position, great all round visibility from the helm. Why put a fractional rig on a boat that isn't going to windward anyway ? This boat is designed really well to do what most blue water cruising boats do, sail downwind. It doesn't have the huge patio doors but the secure cockpit entrance does not feel "cave like".
I was really impressed. Then I walked out on the dock to have one last look, and shook my head. I could never buy a boat that looked like that.

Jim

[Gordon]

Jim, Come down to Yowie Bay and look over the Orana.
Gordon.

[jpemb7]

Hi Gordon
The Orana certainly is a great boat and I'd love to have a look at her. But I'd just be torturing myself because I could never afford her. But thanks for the offer. However,I have done a lot of travelling and only been down Sydney way twice. Once to look for a boat and last year to help a mate bring a boat up to Cairns. So if I was going to head down to the big smoke for anything it would be to see a boat.
But don't go yet because I do think you have an obligation to explain what the risks are for others who might venture to Yowie Bay.

[Gordon]

Jim, Call Richard Kilburn on 07 54525164 and you might be surprised with the deal you may be offered, it can't be far off the price of the Belize, Lapari or Broadblue you have been looking over, and I know that to replace our boat with all options and extras would cost another $100k plus. And this week they are commissioning a new Mahe 36 over at the dock in Kawana if you are interested!

Gordon.
ps. Love the 'Yowie' a very close likeness.

[Factor]

There is an exceptionally cheap Mahe that Jim stubbings at Multihull Yacht Sales in Brisbane has listed, (tell him I sent you!) of course I would suggest that its not a wonderful Australian boat, but I am a little biased, if a mahe is in your agenda, its the newest/cheapest I have seen.

[jpemb7]

Thanks Fellas

I still got my heart set on buying a boat OS on the doorstep of some exotic cruising ground. A place where this joke
" My wife and I are cruising the Carribean.
Jamaica ?
No, she went of her own accord. " Never gets old.

Jim