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Old 08-08-2015, 11:16   #46
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Re: Frustration getting a straight answer on pricing

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Originally Posted by REsCat View Post
I haven't read thru this thread but I am wondering why you don't get a good used, well equipped (or better still lightly equipped- imo) Leopard 46?
Is "Used" an absolute deal breaker?

Bob
Nope it would not be a deal breaker however the latest model I could find was a 2011 and that had already been around the world....worry that it had been stressed already. So when the sport top showed up I was very happy - plus it will be nice to have a new boat to make our own
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Old 17-09-2015, 01:23   #47
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Re: Frustration getting a straight answer on pricing

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Originally Posted by rajsach View Post
The price list that I received from a dealer for the 450S in USD ex factory
has the 4 cabin at $430,571.00 and the owner version 3 cabin at $425,951.00
That seems to be a 1.16 conversion rate based on the euro prices given on the previous post


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
I'm a bit late to the conversation but confused as to what the finial price was?


The USD figure $430,571.00 seems very expensive compared to the EUR quote of € 369,750.00 for 4 cabins.

Even on todays exchange rate this should only cost you USD 419,835.00 and the rates last month at the time of the quote would have been USD 416,154.00.

If anyone needs to book in a forward exchange contract you would be best to visit USForex.com and if you quote, "CruisersForum" when registering you get no fees on small transfer. They provide much better rates than your bank and usually save you 1k on a 30k transfer in the exchange rates alone.

Cheers,

Ed
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Old 18-09-2015, 08:17   #48
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Re: Frustration getting a straight answer on pricing

OP, just bought a lagoon, and went thru what you did. Don't want to give exact specifics, but here is what happened.

I am in the US. In Feb I was boatless. I am in the business where we purchase products in Euro. Noticed the dollar was strong. Very strong vs. the last few years.

Have a FP dealer by me, and we got to talking, and he told me I can purchase in Euros. Made the price very attractive, in fact I should have pulled the trigger back then when E was 1.06! Was very close to do that, and then started speaking to lagoon dealer.

I asked the same thing, he told me that on the 450 and above you can purchase in E. Since I wasn't looking at a boat that large, I told him that the E and $ price are way off, either he or Lagoon are making a boatload of profit, either I get to purchase in E or no way I buy a boat. He completely understood, and said that lagoon/dealer (never know who is really saying what) is offering large 'discounts' on the boat.

Bottom line is that I purchased in $, when I closed E was 1.12, boat price was about 1.14, so still not equal, but pretty close. I paid something like 25% less for a 2015 than what the boat was listed for in 2009 (I have been looking for a looong time, and keep a pricelist each time I go to a boat show;-)

So my advice, hold firm. I think you can get the 450 in E. If not, if the E price converts to 420 and they are offering 430, that is pretty darn close. Remember, you are NOT going to get what you see the actual conversion is, the banks will take something as well. Finally, since the fed did not increase rates, you might see some more creep upwards.

The 2016s are out and they have increased prices 2%. My dealer was telling me this, and I was incredulous of course, saying inflation isn't that, and further, in Europe I think they are about deflationary, so not sure how this is justifified. I would keep pressuring for getting the price as close to the E conversion as possible, but if it is really only 10k away, ask to throw in other stuff, etc.
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Old 18-09-2015, 16:11   #49
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Re: Frustration getting a straight answer on pricing

Money is money...but on the other hand...being the devil's advocate here...don't squeeze so hard that "things" just don't go well as planned. There is an art to negotiation and these guys have it in spades. You will know when there is no juice left in that pineapple...smile
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Old 18-09-2015, 17:05   #50
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Re: Frustration getting a straight answer on pricing

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Originally Posted by alansmith View Post
Money is money...but on the other hand...being the devil's advocate here...don't squeeze so hard that "things" just don't go well as planned. There is an art to negotiation and these guys have it in spades. You will know when there is no juice left in that pineapple...smile
You are right... its all about psychology... I am on my own search road for a "used boat"... and with all the owners I have dealt so far (in total three boats in the range of 36-115 Thousand Euros) they have demonstrated a "strange behaviour" of arrogance and ignorance.

But it is as it is in deals...

If you are looking for uniquely boats, the seller defines the prize. Instead we live in times where these owners have to learn painfully to down size their sales expectations up to 50-60 % (e.g. from 75 Thousand to 36 Thousand, or from 95 Thousand to 70 within few months).

As this is the market situation the prizes are totally down in the basement it seems to provoke a rebellish attitude from owner's side. Not willing to deliver all informations about the boat... and mostly keeping totally silent.

From buyer's side I expect a survey (by a marine engineer) if the boat is in the prize range 25-40 Thousand Euros upwards... as the risks are too high for a buyer to invest another 100-150 % for making this boat safely seagoing (here I state the technical standards of SOLAS to follow.)

Some items these owners do not understand yet, so my feelings. They are no more in the position of a bidder:
  1. Nowadays buyers can research worldwide (e.g. using Meta Crawlers), and get quickly with some mouse clicks a very clear market view fully transparent, even can find "old tracks" of a boat ten years ago (e.g. videos or pics from pre-owners and former brokers).
  2. Buyers can apply for support and address their questions in such wonderful forums (and even get answers from experts, e.g. the wonderful Boat Builder Forum), before they contact the owner or broker.
    Many owners never will get a call or email because they hide and dont offer transparency, which would be trust building.
  3. There are some good platforms out there where boats are fully described, by text, picture, specifications... e.g. The Multihull Company one even can download the photos as ZIP files. These photos are relevant under legal aspects to document the sales offer in case after the contract the owner finds hidden damages.
  4. ... and Youtube helps in another way to get an idea about the seaworthyness of a boat type under sails. (Rec.: I talk here about videos because I wont jump on an airplane to travel trans continental for a test sailing front harbour. Videos are easily done nowadays with smartphones and uploaded cost free for streaming.)
Personally I avoid to accept videos showing a boat only in light wind conditions like this shiney sunshine coffee sailing as I like to say. Not lot worth...


... as all counts for saftyness to see how a boat goes in rough weather, e.g. such a vid let jump happely the heart of a searcher and give a ring to the broker, isnt ? (This clip was made in 2010, so long time ago and it seems the boat is gone, was named here in the forum in 2013.)


I expect well done videos, not just 30 second wacky-shaky snippies full of crunchy noise. E.g. I wish commentations in a video and not a long, long silent movie as this one.


(Rec.: The content in this video is OK as it shows on deck and under deck. From that side the details are OK for me. But the broker could have explained some details, isnt ? And it would need a 2nd video to see the boat going offshore under sails.)

Owners and brokers in 21st century must learn:
they have to invest little bit time in a fully documentation. I dont want see old photos, which show the boat in its best shape 10 years ago.

... and I want know the truth, e.g. a private owner shall not hide to say that his boat was 2-3 years ago in charter business (which often damages a boat heavily). The Internet and Google Cache mostly gives lots of answers about. Very easy to find the facts even not asking an owner.

... and I want see underwater ship photos, too for an understanding about the hull shape, keel/daggerboard and rudder, propeller. As it was well done here (sadly this beautiful Nigel Irens 40 Foot Trimaran from U.K. is already sold.)




Beautiful boat, isnt ? :-) Here under sails...


We talk often about boats in the segment of multihulls and trimarans (that one I am looking for) which have a higher prize than a new Porsche. - Would anybody buy such an expensive car without a fully documentation ? Not me...

Maybe some of these owners who are hiding lots of informations are spoilt by richness... and too arrogant for investing an afternoon on the boat to do a fully documentation with good daylight ????
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Old 18-09-2015, 18:13   #51
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Re: Frustration getting a straight answer on pricing

9680 EUR for L45 Code Zero ...

Well, well. Perhaps buy in EUR and deal with all FX yourself.

You can save some by buying ccy when it is cheap or else you can buy forward ccy.

b.
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Old 20-09-2015, 17:15   #52
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Re: Frustration getting a straight answer on pricing

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbinbi View Post
OP, just bought a lagoon, and went thru what you did. Don't want to give exact specifics, but here is what happened.

I am in the US. In Feb I was boatless. I am in the business where we purchase products in Euro. Noticed the dollar was strong. Very strong vs. the last few years.

Have a FP dealer by me, and we got to talking, and he told me I can purchase in Euros. Made the price very attractive, in fact I should have pulled the trigger back then when E was 1.06! Was very close to do that, and then started speaking to lagoon dealer.

I asked the same thing, he told me that on the 450 and above you can purchase in E. Since I wasn't looking at a boat that large, I told him that the E and $ price are way off, either he or Lagoon are making a boatload of profit, either I get to purchase in E or no way I buy a boat. He completely understood, and said that lagoon/dealer (never know who is really saying what) is offering large 'discounts' on the boat.

Bottom line is that I purchased in $, when I closed E was 1.12, boat price was about 1.14, so still not equal, but pretty close. I paid something like 25% less for a 2015 than what the boat was listed for in 2009 (I have been looking for a looong time, and keep a pricelist each time I go to a boat show;-)

So my advice, hold firm. I think you can get the 450 in E. If not, if the E price converts to 420 and they are offering 430, that is pretty darn close. Remember, you are NOT going to get what you see the actual conversion is, the banks will take something as well. Finally, since the fed did not increase rates, you might see some more creep upwards.

The 2016s are out and they have increased prices 2%. My dealer was telling me this, and I was incredulous of course, saying inflation isn't that, and further, in Europe I think they are about deflationary, so not sure how this is justifified. I would keep pressuring for getting the price as close to the E conversion as possible, but if it is really only 10k away, ask to throw in other stuff, etc.
Congrats on the purchase and hope you are enjoying her! Good work on the negotiations as well because I always hear of people just taking the first thing they get and then being told only a few days or weeks later of a better deal.

With regards to the exchange rate not going to be the actual rate, this is definitely the case when you convert your funds through your bank as they take very wide margins up to 5%. Most people will simply use their bank to make a money transfer but probably aren’t aware of alternatives that can make the process easier and save them a lot of money.

When making large or small international transfer you should always double check your banks rate with foreign exchange experts such as USForex as they save up to 90% in the hidden exchange rate fees.

I work for USForex and I'm happy to answer any questions regarding international transfers. We help thousands of individual buy yachts from overseas and pay international bills each year. If you do use our service quote, "CruisersForum" in the how did you hear about us and I will also add no transfer fees to your account.

Regards,

Ed Wiley
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Old 20-09-2015, 17:41   #53
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Re: Frustration getting a straight answer on pricing

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingabroad View Post
Congrats on the purchase and hope you are enjoying her! Good work on the negotiations as well because I always hear of people just taking the first thing they get and then being told only a few days or weeks later of a better deal.

With regards to the exchange rate not going to be the actual rate, this is definitely the case when you convert your funds through your bank as they take very wide margins up to 5%. Most people will simply use their bank to make a money transfer but probably aren’t aware of alternatives that can make the process easier and save them a lot of money.

When making large or small international transfer you should always double check your banks rate with foreign exchange experts such as USForex as they save up to 90% in the hidden exchange rate fees.

I work for USForex and I'm happy to answer any questions regarding international transfers. We help thousands of individual buy yachts from overseas and pay international bills each year. If you do use our service quote, "CruisersForum" in the how did you hear about us and I will also add no transfer fees to your account.

Regards,

Ed Wiley
I concur, banks may be your most convenient, but you pay for that. I use a foreign exchange house to transfer funds from Canada to the US, and the rate I get versus midday quotes for the day is close enough I am comfortable with the commission they earn on the transaction. The only hiccup is that it takes 3 days for the transfer to get into my US bank.
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Old 20-09-2015, 17:55   #54
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Re: Frustration getting a straight answer on pricing

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
I concur, banks may be your most convenient, but you pay for that. I use a foreign exchange house to transfer funds from Canada to the US, and the rate I get versus midday quotes for the day is close enough I am comfortable with the commission they earn on the transaction. The only hiccup is that it takes 3 days for the transfer to get into my US bank.
Yes the turnaround in transfer time from can often be slow from Canada. You can pay via wire transfer to get your transfer on the next business day but you get stung with wire fees, so only worth it on larger transfers.

Some services offer cheaper solutions like our CanadianForex service that offer you the ability to pay by BillPay and Direct debit for free but as you advised these take 3 days to clear.

The convenience over the banks would be that you are able to transfer online or over the phone 24/6 and you will talk to people that specialise in foreign exchange, so are able to truly help.

The banks are able to charge wide margins because most people are not aware of alternatives and they the just take advantage of this.

Regards,

Ed
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Old 04-10-2015, 15:09   #55
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Re: Frustration getting a straight answer on pricing

Law 101. Three elements that must exist for a contract to be enforceable. 1. An Offer 2. An Acceptance 3. A Consideration

If an offer is devoid of a payment of consideration then no enforceable contract exists. Make an offer without a deposit. Wait for the sellers acceptance and only then make a deposit. If the seller counter offers then you must make an acceptance of the new offer. If you are putting an offer in writing which is the best way you can always put at the end all contracted agreements it alteration thereof must be by written agreement of all parties to the agreement.

Just my 2 cents worth.

As with buying a car from a car lot. Be very careful of the "paper work"
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