Catamaran flips in Rough Seas - Fraser Island

[2Wind]

How is it that we confuse speculation with reality, opinion with fact, bias for truth.
Basically there are currently very few pieces of genuine information.

So far there are two identifiable news articles (small local news outlets in Maroochydore and Gympie), but whether truth of otherwise, time will tell.
Media Reports.
1. Location: Wide Bay Bar
2. 11:30 pm
3. 12m Cat
4. "Over turned"
5. All safe after VMR vessel rescue with helicopter oversight using night vision equipment (night vision equipment being the thrust of one of the news stories).

Comment:
1. Although ex tropical cyclone Winston is approaching the SE Queensland Coast, it's impact last night was minor in local terms, being related to the established swell from events earlier in the week well off shore. Swell height last night at the Mooloolabah Wave rider Bouy was 2.5-3.0m. The pending Strong wind warning takes effect tomorrow as it nears the coast although tonight conditions are now building with all coastal beaches closed.
2. I have crossed Wide Bay Bar 18 or more times. I have headed out in calm conditions at night, but to enter at night would be foolhardy in the extreme especially with a 3m swell running easterly.
3. Last night's high tide was 2.0m at 22:27, so at least the crossing was reasonably well timed for the tide, admittedly one hour into the ebb.
4. New and updated waypoints provided by VMR Tin Can Bay differ from the charts (paper and electronic). At night it would be very easy to find oneself west of the correct path between WPT 1 and WPT 2 where it does get pretty shallow and surf frequently runs, especially with a 3m swell (plus, let's say a 0.5-1.0m sea). The wind last night was 15+ kts SES, being with the swell but against a early ebbing tide of only 2.0m.
5. On the correct track, there would have been 5-6m depth. Off track, west of the line as reflected in most charts, it may have been only 2.5m or even less with surf.
6. "Over turning" a 12m cat in these conditions, still seems difficult to understand. I can only imagine they began surfing, and either broached or grounded in the swell. This is conjecture however.
7. Unfortunately, we may never know what happened, as the media are good at announcing events, but are poor on the after-story unless there is a large readership. I suspect both the Maroochydore and Gympie local news outlets will not follow up on this event....
8 Very pleasing to hear all are well, but poor choices placed the VMR personnel in great danger, and sent a chopper 50NM from base at great cost to those that pay tax.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by 2Wind

8 Very pleasing to hear all are well, but poor choices placed the VMR personnel in great danger, and sent a chopper 50NM from base at great cost to those that pay tax.

I am So F**kin Sick of these kind of remarks...
Usually they come from 'Loadsa Money' who hire accountants etc for the sole purpose of Tax Avoidance... a legal loophole to avoid their due's.
But you don't hear a whisper about Tax Waste when it happens to them...
And its highly unlikely you will find any of the Breed serving as unpaid Lifeboat crew.

[2Wind]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I am So F**kin Sick of these kind of remarks...
Usually they come from 'Loadsa Money' who hire accountants etc for the sole purpose of Tax Avoidance... a legal loophole to avoid their due's.
But you don't hear a whisper about Tax Waste when it happens to them...
And its highly unlikely you will find any of the Breed serving as unpaid Lifeboat crew.

Sorry to have offended you so significantly. Please accept my apologies.
Nevertheless, your characterization of me is deeply offensive also, but I'll let it go as i have come to respect you and your comments on this forum.

Still, the reality remains that poor choices like those described do generate great "costs" whether they be life and financial risks to the victims or the life risks of the rescuer. Lets not down play the danger of being in a 30 foot lifeboat on a coastal bar, in shallow water with breaking seas all around in the pitch black of night. Almost certainly the chopper was there as much for the rescuers as it was for the crew of the upturned vessel. You may not care about the financial costs to the community but i have a right to regardless.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by 2Wind

Sorry to have offended you so significantly. Please accept my apologies.
Nevertheless, your characterization of me is deeply offensive also, but I'll let it go as i have come to respect you and your comments on this forum.

Still, the reality remains that poor choices like those described do generate great "costs" whether they be life and financial risks to the victims or the life risks of the rescuer. Lets not down play the danger of being in a 30 foot lifeboat on a coastal bar, in shallow water with breaking seas all around in the pitch black of night. Almost certainly the chopper was there as much for the rescuers as it was for the crew of the upturned vessel. You may not care about the financial costs to the community but i have a right to regardless.

Sorry you took it as a Personal slight.
it was not meant as such.. more a generalisation as I do not know if you are a wealthy tax dodger or not..
Every time there's a rescue we get the same chorus.. 'Oh My $$$$'s.. Woe is me.. '
Yet if and when these people find themselves in the same boat it can often be...
"I pay my taxes.. why is the CG/RNLI whatever not faster off the mark.. I mean.. it took them 1hr to come and tow me in.. almost missed my train home"
This is a 'Real Life' scenario every summer w/end in the UK.. but its okay coz they are tax payers...
Only problem in the UK is.. its a Charity.. Not paid for by Taxes..
I was under the impression that OZ Rescue in the main was the same.. Unpaid Voluteers

[stillbuilding]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Sorry you took it as a Personal slight.

it was not meant as such.. more a generalisation as I do not know if you are a wealthy tax dodger or not..

Every time there's a rescue we get the same chorus.. 'Oh My $$$$'s.. Woe is me.. '

Yet if and when these people find themselves in the same boat it can often be...

"I pay my taxes.. why is the CG/RNLI whatever not faster off the mark.. I mean.. it took them 1hr to come and tow me in.. almost missed my train home"

This is a 'Real Life' scenario every summer w/end in the UK.. but its okay coz they are tax payers...

Only problem in the UK is.. its a Charity.. Not paid for by Taxes..

I was under the impression that OZ Rescue in the main was the same.. Unpaid Voluteers

Yup, the guys in the rescue boat are local volunteers. A year ago they launched their hefty shark cat with four crew to tow me to a safe anchorage behind Double Island Point, a task which took six hours of their time and a lot of fuel with no recompense or fee asked.

Sail around the prop at the time acting like a parachute drogue, pitch black and drifting into the beach. Very anxious time.

Will be looking them up next month for a thanks and cheque.




Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forums lily hhrn

[inchcailloch]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Sorry you took it as a Personal slight.
it was not meant as such.. more a generalisation as I do not know if you are a wealthy tax dodger or not..
Every time there's a rescue we get the same chorus.. 'Oh My $$$$'s.. Woe is me.. '
Yet if and when these people find themselves in the same boat it can often be...
"I pay my taxes.. why is the CG/RNLI whatever not faster off the mark.. I mean.. it took them 1hr to come and tow me in.. almost missed my train home"
This is a 'Real Life' scenario every summer w/end in the UK.. but its okay coz they are tax payers...
Only problem in the UK is.. its a Charity.. Not paid for by Taxes..
I was under the impression that OZ Rescue in the main was the same.. Unpaid Voluteers

No offense taken and certainly none intended to be given. Just leaving Panama which is perhaps the biggest rip off for sailors I have ever come across, I am proud of the uk heritage of being virtually paperless. For sailing, mountaineering, canoeing I have never been asked for a bit of paper, forms etc save for the school I was at to take young people out. I used to be a member of mountain rescue, Scotland and subscribe monthly to RNLI. I've seen someone fall to their death in the Alps, been in the next party down on the Mallory route of Everest when the next party was avalanche. Yes, I've been on rescues for people that should never have been on the mountains but the golden rule is not to criticize. I sail solo (3 times atlantic and now Pacific) this many would say is a no no. Most of mountains I've climbed are solo both in Scotland and throughout the world.....again no no. But I would not want it changed for he world. And as Hamish MacInnes once said hearing of the suicide of someone who was a virtual paraplegic after he had rescued the young person follwing a fall in Glencoe. .....I think I'd have done the same myself. And one reason I sail solo, if I die, I die without taking anyone else. I've lived life to the full and not regretted any adventure. As my father always said "I'd rather die living than live dying"

Ps do we then make smokers pay for their related Healthcare? Obese people pay for their treatment? Swimmers for their rescues and those having had electrical faults in their homes, chip pans on fire for the fire services. Please let's not go down the litigation line of America, or even the rescue cost of France.....even though their services are excellent. I think the UK have got the balance and going to other countries, I for one am proud of it!

This is written purely for lively discussion not aggressive argument. .

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by 2Wind

How is it that we confuse speculation with reality, opinion with fact, bias for truth.
Basically there are currently very few pieces of genuine information.

So far there are two identifiable news articles (small local news outlets in Maroochydore and Gympie), but whether truth of otherwise, time will tell.
Media Reports.
1. Location: Wide Bay Bar
2. 11:30 pm
3. 12m Cat
4. "Over turned"
5. All safe after VMR vessel rescue with helicopter oversight using night vision equipment (night vision equipment being the thrust of one of the news stories).

Comment:
1. Although ex tropical cyclone Winston is approaching the SE Queensland Coast, it's impact last night was minor in local terms, being related to the established swell from events earlier in the week well off shore. Swell height last night at the Mooloolabah Wave rider Bouy was 2.5-3.0m. The pending Strong wind warning takes effect tomorrow as it nears the coast although tonight conditions are now building with all coastal beaches closed.
2. I have crossed Wide Bay Bar 18 or more times. I have headed out in calm conditions at night, but to enter at night would be foolhardy in the extreme especially with a 3m swell running easterly.
3. Last night's high tide was 2.0m at 22:27, so at least the crossing was reasonably well timed for the tide, admittedly one hour into the ebb.
4. New and updated waypoints provided by VMR Tin Can Bay differ from the charts (paper and electronic). At night it would be very easy to find oneself west of the correct path between WPT 1 and WPT 2 where it does get pretty shallow and surf frequently runs, especially with a 3m swell (plus, let's say a 0.5-1.0m sea). The wind last night was 15+ kts SES, being with the swell but against a early ebbing tide of only 2.0m.
5. On the correct track, there would have been 5-6m depth. Off track, west of the line as reflected in most charts, it may have been only 2.5m or even less with surf.
6. "Over turning" a 12m cat in these conditions, still seems difficult to understand. I can only imagine they began surfing, and either broached or grounded in the swell. This is conjecture however.
7. Unfortunately, we may never know what happened, as the media are good at announcing events, but are poor on the after-story unless there is a large readership. I suspect both the Maroochydore and Gympie local news outlets will not follow up on this event....
8 Very pleasing to hear all are well, but poor choices placed the VMR personnel in great danger, and sent a chopper 50NM from base at great cost to those that pay tax.

Any speculation on not being reefed enough? Surfing broaching and to much sail is a formula for disaster with a multihull.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Any speculation on not being reefed enough? Surfing broaching and to much sail is a formula for disaster with a multihull.

Do we know whether they were going in or out?

[Paul J. Nolan]

Some discussion this turned out to be. Look, a man wants a boat that is modeled after his shoreside condominium, fine by me. That's his choice. Then he takes that unseaworthy vessel offshore or into dangerous waters. Well, that's his choice too. But don't expect my sympathy when a bad practice results in a bad outcome.

Paul

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Paul J. Nolan

Some discussion this turned out to be. Look, a man wants a boat that is modeled after his shoreside condominium, fine by me. That's his choice. Then he takes that unseaworthy vessel offshore or into dangerous waters. Well, that's his choice too. But don't expect my sympathy when a bad practice results in a bad outcome.

Paul

If it was the cat pictured in post #61, it's hardly "modeled after a shoreside condominium".

And many a "condomoran" is perfectly seaworthy, as evidenced by the numbers currently cruising safely around the world.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Paul J. Nolan

Some discussion this turned out to be. Look, a man wants a boat that is modeled after his shoreside condominium, fine by me. That's his choice. Then he takes that unseaworthy vessel offshore or into dangerous waters. Well, that's his choice too. But don't expect my sympathy when a bad practice results in a bad outcome.



Paul

Ignorance is bliss.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Paul J. Nolan

Some discussion this turned out to be. Look, a man wants a boat that is modeled after his shoreside condominium, fine by me. That's his choice. Then he takes that unseaworthy vessel offshore or into dangerous waters. Well, that's his choice too. But don't expect my sympathy when a bad practice results in a bad outcome.

Paul

1) The boat wasn't based on a condominium, but was a racing boat.

2) Wide Bay Bar is far from being offshore. It's right on the coast.

3) Plenty of SEAWORTHY vessels have come to grief on the WBB.

But don't let stupid stuff like facts get in the way of a mindless rant....

[Red Herring]

Originally Posted by Paul J. Nolan

Some discussion this turned out to be. Look, a man wants a boat that is modeled after his shoreside condominium, fine by me. That's his choice. Then he takes that unseaworthy vessel offshore or into dangerous waters. Well, that's his choice too. But don't expect my sympathy when a bad practice results in a bad outcome.

Paul

I must have missed some of the info here, I didn't see what type of boat it was. Could you elaborate, or are you speculating?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Red Herring

I must have missed some of the info here, I didn't see what type of boat it was. Could you elaborate, or are you speculating?

Open bridgedeck speed cat

[Red Herring]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Open bridgedeck speed cat

Ah, yes. One of those infamous Condomarans.