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Old 02-10-2011, 13:07   #46
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Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

Barnakeil, I was only talking about cruising boats.
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Old 02-10-2011, 13:17   #47
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Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

Yes, then bigger=safer, all other factors equal.

The other issue is how safe is safe enough for the job in hand. I would say the 35' an bigger cats of cruising mass market pedigree are safe enough for the regular 'easy' route sailing.

At least I have never seen any issues in any of this tier of cats we saw over last 8 years. And we saw dozens.

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Old 02-10-2011, 13:51   #48
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Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

Bigger is safer still extends to racing boats, including cats. Its just that its almost as easy to sail a large racing cat over as a small one. However the larger one will still be much safer in storm waves than a smaller one. But the added weight of a cruising cat will also make it harder to flip by waves.
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Old 02-10-2011, 19:05   #49
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Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

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Originally Posted by hummingway View Post
Both of these statements seem to me to be pretty lacking in value.

A cat with its higher righting moment is less likely to heel but it capsizes at lower angles.
Now I get it! A cat at 20 degrees has "capsized" whereas a mono has to go 180', riiiiiiiight!

THATS where all this "cats are easier to capsize" garbage comes from!
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Old 02-10-2011, 19:25   #50
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Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

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If you aren't going to differentiate between initial stability and ultimate stability, then you are just adding to the fog of myths. In general, a cat has greater initial stability than a mono. A mono has greater ultimate stability. A cat can be rolled by wind or wave. A mono by wave.
You guys love this term "ultimate stability" don't you? Pretty meaningless of course. But probably makes you feel good. In REAL terms a cat is more stable. Higher righting moment (by several times) and much greater beam, mean they simply dont roll over as easily.

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I don't know why you say 'probably vice-versa too'. It isn't probably, it is definitely. Look at the Queens Birthday storm. The fact that a boat was mono or multi was not a deciding factor. Length overall was a good predicator..
Well, since you mention the Queen's birthday storm, there were at least 3 cats involved, of which NONE - got that? NONE capsized, while I belive seven monohulls were rolled repeatedly, dismasted, and one lost tragically along with 3 lives.

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Since we are talking cruising boats here, monos typically are significantly better sailing to weather. A dog overloaded poor mono design goes to weather like crap. An overloaded cat does too. A clean, modern mono cruising design goes to weather significantly better than a clean, modern cruising cat. Cats have lots of positives, sailing close to windward is not one of them.
Yep
I'd suggest you have no idea what a clean, modern cruising catamaran looks like. It's not what you usually find in charter fleets. They are boats built to accomodate large numbers of people comfortably, sailing performance ranks a distant second.

There are several designers who draw cruising boats that SAIL. Like Chris White, Kurt Hughes, several Aussies such as Bob Oram, Geoff and Craig Schionning, and many others. Their CRUISING boats sail to windward as well as or better than the vast majority of mono's My boat simply eats mono's to windward - any CRUISING boat to 50 feet is so easy it's almost funny to watch their expressions of amazement.

It's easy to blur the issue, compare racing mono's to production charter catamarans for example. But comparing like with like, RACING cats crap all over racing mono's on any and every point of sail.

Getting back to the topic: No you don't need a cat bigger than 40 feet to circumnavigate, although the myth perpetrators here might say you do. Many, probably hundreds of boats less than 40 feet have circumnavigeted.
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Old 02-10-2011, 19:45   #51
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Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Now I get it! A cat at 20 degrees has "capsized" whereas a mono has to go 180', riiiiiiiight!

THATS where all this "cats are easier to capsize" garbage comes from!

I didn't say they were easier to capsize but I can see some garbage alright. Do you suppose someday you'll actually write something of value on this topic?
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Old 02-10-2011, 20:10   #52
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Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

I'll just join in the discussion. Modern production cats and some not so modern go to windward quite well especially those with daggerboards. Those made by Catana, Outremer, Maine Cat, and others will easily keep up with any mono cruiser to weather. Back in the old days you could order your boat with keels or boards from just about any manufacturer so older Privileges, FPs etc can be found with boards. A lot of the keel boats will still beat a mono to the destination by bearing off a touch and obtaining a higher speed albeit while covering more miles. So going to weather is really irrelevant because even a fat cat will still outpace a fat mono and get there sooner. But I DIGRESS. 40' is a good length but as an earlier poster said a little longer feels better and is does to me comfortwise. I personally like the 44' to 48' range. Longer waterline can't be all bad, except for the extra expense. Whether my funds will allow me to get a bigger boat, well that's another story. BOB
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Old 02-10-2011, 21:26   #53
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Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

I just love this line of thinking, what size cat for world cruising. Oh no it should be a mono. I have about 10,000 miles of ocean cruising. Have owned a 23' S-2, 28' Southern Cross, 34' Dudley Dix desgined steel, and since 05 a 34' Prout Event (the sport model of the prout line if there is such a thing really she goes quite well). Recently my girl friend and I went aboard a Lepoard 40 with a nice layout with all the things you could want including a washer and dryer. Wish I could afford one. Oh yeah world crusing. Go when the time of year is most in your favor, have a sound boat, well supplied, with a good crew if desired ( I mostly go single handed) then think about that 80% of the time you will be at on the hook or at a pier. Ask yourself do I want to lay straight into the wind at anchor (I do) or do you want to race around your anchor like a race driver (I've seen both large cats and monohulls do this) When getting in and of the dinghy (stationwagon) do you want to step onto a deck that is steady of possibly rolling around while you crawl over the side? Having enough food on board a crusing boat is lot about the crew. I eat as well as others with both frozen canned and fresh food on board. With a wind generator and solar panel I have been upplugged for 10 months at a time. Same with the Dudley Dix.I know this is long but I am in the yard for a few short repairs and the boat is sitting on four foot high blocks with no pesky jack stands I feel safe. Anyway the cats are for me but I love monohulls too. Just ask my friends when they take me out.Fair winds and free spirits.
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Old 02-10-2011, 23:19   #54
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Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

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Originally Posted by dennisail View Post
Those upturned boats are pure racers with broken canting keels and an oversized inshore racing dingy with vestigial ballast
Indeed. I have a full-keel 40' (51'LOA) and there is simply no physically possible way for it to remain inverted. The sheer tonnage of lead underneath there makes her lightly heel even in a fierce blow. She's a damn weeble.

An x-maran is slightly more likely to roll than a monohull is to pitchpole due to underlying ballast. The likelihood of her pitchpoling is slightly greater but since monohulls above the daysailor size are unlikely to pitchpole, it's a negligible concern. The tradeoffs for me would be storage and living space, and that's variable more between boats in the same type than it is purely between 'typical' examples of cats, tris, and monos.
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Old 02-10-2011, 23:52   #55
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Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

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Hummingway, the following applies only to us. Conventional wisdom says have an inboard, but outboards have come a long way...

PROS

No thru hulls for shaft, nor cooling water, nor exhaust. (Simple. Safe. Cheap.)
Easy removal for maintenance either in the cockpit or ashore. We have done both. (Also simple, cheap and sooo convenient.)
When sailing, we kick up both outboards and remove our "sailing handbrake". (Performance.)
They do not take away from below decks volume. Nor pollute the below decks atmosphere, like engines beneath the aft bunks. (Comfort.)
The 3rd world fishing fleet operates with outboards. (Spare parts. Mechanics.)

CONS

Take away volume from cockpit lockers. (Not significant, but should be considered.)
More exposed to the elements than inboards. (Use that WD40, mate!)
Props can suck down some air and cavitate in extreme conditions. (Minimal but it depends on outboard length and longitudinal position - forward and deep is obviously better.)
Easy theft.
That makes eminent good sense to me. I wonder when we will see practical diesel outboards? Now with the rapid advance in diesels for light automobiles, surely it is just a matter of time?

I am surprised we don't see catamarans with outdrives -- eliminating all the built-in stern gear (except, obviously, rudder), no holes below the waterline, and nothing in the water while sailing - sounds fantastic.

One negative factor not mentioned- weight distribution. All the propulsion equipent cantilevered off the stern. That as to be a big negative on a light cat.
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Old 03-10-2011, 00:09   #56
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Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Now I get it! A cat at 20 degrees has "capsized" whereas a mono has to go 180', riiiiiiiight!

THATS where all this "cats are easier to capsize" garbage comes from!
I think this whole topic definitely deserves the prize for the most boring, unenlightening topic on CF. Nothing new or interesting has been said about this for at least 10 years.

Statistics show that there is no significant difference between cats and monos -- between those cats and those monos which are in actual, practical use for blue water cruising -- in terms of safety (this may not hold true for boats smaller than average in use for blue water cruising, as the Southampton University report shows). About the same very small percentage of each come to grief every x million miles.

As I've said over and over again (also being a bore, I'm sure), there is no significant difference between cats and monos in terms of speed or cost, either - if you compare like for like rather than length for length, which is not comparable between cats and monos foot for foot.

They are different, and that's all. Pure matter of taste. Trying to convince each other about the superiority of either is just about the silliest endeavor I can think of.
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Old 03-10-2011, 00:28   #57
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Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Statistics show
Reference?
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Old 03-10-2011, 00:36   #58
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Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

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I didn't say they were easier to capsize but I can see some garbage alright. Do you suppose someday you'll actually write something of value on this topic?
Hey, YOU said catamarans capsize at a lower angle! Possibly the dumbest statement Iv'e seen on the topic, and there have been some beauts!

I'll admit to having been a bit harsh, cynical even. I just get bored seeing the same anti-multihull crap trotted out time and time again...

What is it with you guys really? Do you see any of us over on the monohull forum telling people who want to buy a mono that they should buy a cat? EVER?

So why is it almost every topic that starts "I want to buy a cat, which one should I get?" has half a dozen of you guys saying - "Buy a mono, they are safer better looking faster blah blah blah..."

Is it some desperate attempt to prop up their plummeting market values?
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Old 03-10-2011, 00:38   #59
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Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

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They are different, and that's all. Pure matter of taste. Trying to convince each other about the superiority of either is just about the silliest endeavor I can think of.
So why are there so many monohull guys on the MULTHULL forum telling us how much better monohulls are?
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Old 03-10-2011, 00:43   #60
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Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

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That makes eminent good sense to me. I wonder when we will see practical diesel outboards? Now with the rapid advance in diesels for light automobiles, surely it is just a matter of time?
YAnmar made them for many years, think they have just about dropped them off the line as modern Petrol O/Bs are almost as fuel efficient and a truck load lighter.

Quote:
I am surprised we don't see catamarans with outdrives -- eliminating all the built-in stern gear (except, obviously, rudder), no holes below the waterline, and nothing in the water while sailing - sounds fantastic.
We do see them a lot of Prouts and Geminis etc. As for your thoughts on benefits of outdrive, Outboards seem to deal with those issues.

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One negative factor not mentioned- weight distribution. All the propulsion equipent cantilevered off the stern. That as to be a big negative on a light cat.
Indeed.
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