Yet Another First-Time Sailboat Buyer

[kabball]

So I saw the boats and made a day of it.

Biggest development of the day was one broker in particular really negative on the whole full keel boats. Now I have heard all of the arguments to and for a lot and as you could tell I have a very soft spot for those boats.

Now his stance though was not all the other way to modern production boats and was equally as un impressed there. He comes out in the middle like the aloha. Sturdily built with a heavy built fin style of keel but with a solid skeg hung rudder. Things like a valiant 40 etc. But no to the full keel, he wants to sail etc and all that.

The panda's I saw were gorgeous but this guy made an impact on me.

Currently Inam shifting to boats that fit that bill

Valiant 40
Passport 40
The aloha 34 is still in the mix even though it won't last us as long as the kids grow.


What other boats fit that bill well?

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by kabball

Going to see 4 boats tomorrow

Panda 38
Panda 40 pilothouse
Aloha 34
Bayfield 40

All of these boats will work assuming that you will never be underway overnight, some or all of the kids are willing to share berths and you are willing to convert berths every night.

Panda 38 Decent sail area in the lightship condition. Looks like a wide quarter berth, a settee and a U-dinette.
Panda 40 pilothouse Pilot-house model has 1 double wide quarter berth and a U-dinette. The settee on the standard model was lost to the interior helm station. Mediocre sail area in the lightship condition.
Aloha 34 Marginal sail area in the lightship condition. 1 quarterberth, 1 settee and and an L-dinette.
Bayfield 40 This is really a 36’ boat with a bowsprit and overhanging mizzen giving an overall length of about 41’. Both quarter-berths are doubles and you would need to subdivide each and get the kids to buy into the arrangement. Check to see if the radius corners of the dinette can be removed to make it more comfortable for sleeping.


If you are going to look at smaller boats then think about:

Alajela 33 It’s the best laid out boat of its size I have seen. Sink near centerline to avoid backflow on one tack, head near companionway to store wet clothing upon coming below, dedicated chart table, 6 berths, 1 for each kid, no sharing, well built, decent sail area in the lightship condition. The rudder has a substantial skeg, though it is not quite complete. Most of the boats you expressed interest in are full keel except the Valiant 40 which has a moderate skeg, the Alajuela would be about as sturdy. There is even one for sale near you in Oak Harbor, WA on Whitby Is.. Alajuela 33 for Sale

[kabball]

That alajuela is interesting. Even has protection for the prop.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by kabball

So I saw the boats and made a day of it.

Biggest development of the day was one broker in particular really negative on the whole full keel boats. Now I have heard all of the arguments to and for a lot and as you could tell I have a very soft spot for those boats.

Now his stance though was not all the other way to modern production boats and was equally as un impressed there. He comes out in the middle like the aloha. Sturdily built with a heavy built fin style of keel but with a solid skeg hung rudder. Things like a valiant 40 etc. But no to the full keel, he wants to sail etc and all that.

The panda's I saw were gorgeous but this guy made an impact on me.

Currently Inam shifting to boats that fit that bill

Valiant 40
Passport 40
The aloha 34 is still in the mix even though it won't last us as long as the kids grow.


What other boats fit that bill well?

Apparently my last post just missed your post discussing underbody preferences.

Others to consider:
Compass 37
Island Packet
Pacific Seacraft
Crealock

When looking at gorgeous boats consider 2 things, gorgeous is more likely to attract you interest and to get the nod from the admiral when buying, but during ownership you will spend a lot more time pestering the kids to keep gorgeous from getting nicked and stained. This may detract from you enjoyment of time on the boat and may put them off sailing. Given that you already have owned a boat this issue may have already been resolved in you family. If not I have no easy answeres.

[kabball]

How would you guys compare a 1987 Ericson 34 to a 1984 Aloha 34. My take from what I can see

- Aloha is slightly heavier still even though it's apparently 10 inches shorter
- Aloha has a Skeg hung rudder the Ericson does not.
- Ericson has a little better berth room where it's aft cabin is a double.

So my quick take is the Aloha is built a bit sturdier overall but perhaps the Ericson would be a tad faster and more comfortable inside?

anyone else have thoughts?

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by kabball

How would you guys compare a 1987 Ericson 34 to a 1984 Aloha 34. My take from what I can see:

Originally Posted by kabball

- Aloha is slightly heavier still even though it's apparently 10 inches shorter
- Aloha has a Skeg hung rudder the Ericson does not.
- Ericson has a little better berth room where it's aft cabin is a double.
So my quick take is the Aloha is built a bit sturdier overall but perhaps the Ericson would be a tad faster and more comfortable inside?
anyone else have thoughts?

Boat Ericson 34.2 Aloha 34
Rudder Spade Skeg
PHRF 123 165
Step Keel ?
Side Deck Moderate Moderate
Remarks IOR hull
PB 1
QB dbl 1
Settee 1 1
Dinette L-dbl L-dbl
LOA 34.83 34
LOD 34.83 34
LWL 29 28.67
Beam 11.33 11.17
Draft+ 6.2 5.5
LOD/Bm 3.07 3.04
Displ. 13000 13600
Ballast 5200 4700
DLR 238 258
% Bal 0.4 0.35
Hull 7800 8900
Hwt/ L3 82 101
Hwt /L2B 253 308
Hwt/ LB1.5 444 537
Hwt/ LB2 779 937
Hwt/ LB 88 105
CSF 1.77 1.88
SA 594.6 531
Displ. 13000 13600
D2 16000 16600
SA/D 17.3 15
SA/D2 15 13.1
Anchor Load 2480 2400
Hull Speed 7.2 7.2
HP@ Hull Spd 34.6 35.8
HS nm/gal 3.8 3.6
5kt nm/gal 7.6 7.2
4.5kt nm/gal 8.3 8
4kt nm/gal 8.9 8.5
3.5kt nm/gal 9.3 8.9

(Sorry about the formating, CF won't accept tables from Excel nor tabbing from Word)

Skeg is a slight safety advantage to the Aloha in term of structural strength at the cost of maneuverability in a marina. In the PNW and even going around Vancouver Isl. I wouldn't worry about it either way.

Comparing PHRF ratings the Ericson will be moderately faster, about 42s per mile. Racing or offshore this would be significant, but for a normal day’s cruising in the PNW it might take you 1/2hr longer to get to your destination

The dimensions of the hulls and cabins are about the same, both with moderate width side decks. The Ericson has significantly more draft, but in the PNW this should not be a big deal except for a few anchorages. I wouldn’t sweat the draft. I believe both have keel stepped masts, I would not sweat it either way for PNW cruising.

The Ericson being slightly wider and longer might give you a little more room below but the hull shape is classic IOR, though not extreme, with pinched bow and stern so internal volume it probably comparable. The pinching will give you a few unpleasant sailing quirks but they shouldn’t be enough to affect the boat choice decision given that the boat is intended for PNW use and not offshore very significantly.

The fin on the Ericson is probably very pointy. I could not find a view of it but similarly sized, contemporary boats by Bruce King have the pointy fin (Ericson 34T, Ericson 35.3). The downside to this is that the center of gravity will be significantly higher affecting Angle of Vanishing Stability. Given you stated intention to upgrade before going offshore this would not be the slightest bit important unless you decided to circumnavigate Vancouver Isl, then it might be a minor concern, but not big enough big enough to have any influence on boat choice at this time. The pointy fin may result in a sailing quirk or two but I do not recall any previous discussion about this fin type other than about the CG being affected. On a related issue the Ericson has a mild advantage for the Capsize Screening Formula (CSF), but both boats are well below 2.00. I actually expect that if both boats were compared for roll moment of inertia, the better number for comparison of capsize resistance, they would be equal or the Aloha slightly better. Given the intended use neither AVS nor CSF are remotely important.

The Aloha is slightly heavier than the Ericson and the D/L ratio bears this out. However if you account for ballast and compare hull weights, the Aloha has 1100lb more material in the structure of the boat. If you compare all the different permutations of hull weight divided by length and beam, similar to the math for L/D, the Aloha is a significantly beefier boat. This is not to say that the Ericson couldn’t still be the better boat if the workmanship and engineering was a lot better, but workmanship and engineering being equal, the Aloha would be stronger.

I figure the boat will carry an extra 3000lb loaded for a 1-2 vacation. Yes 3k. Crew weight will be 500-600lb, personal gear (clothes, books, diapers, toys, electronics) 400-500, call it 1000lb together. Boat stuff will be 1200-1500 lb (fuel, batteries, anchor, chain, rope, windlass, (yes you want chain), dinghy or two, outboard, navigation tools, charts and books, galley gear, plus misc stuff like crab pots and spare parts. Food and water will be 500-800lb (1 gal/person/day, 3-5lb/person/day food). Going offshore the food, water and fuel weights go way up, personal gear weights go up a bit less.

The Ericson has a lot more sail area for its weight. The SA/D starts out at a very good 17.3 and drops to an acceptable 15.0 by the time you load the boat. The Aloha goes from 15.0 to 13.1 loaded. Adding a forestay and related rigging for a staysail would significantly improve this situation for both boats, with the added benefit of redundant rigging for the upper part of the mast. Both boats have double lowers which provide redundancy.

The Ericson has a double spreader rig which will be mildly harder to tune.

Anchor loads per ABYC for both boats should be about the same. My spread sheet calcs for 60kt wind speed if I recall correctly.

Hull speed and fuel consumption should be about the same. As you can see from the calculated values, motoring at a slower speed can more than double your mileage.

[Jaspell]

Go buy a copy of John Kretschmer's Used Boat Notebook. He is a very seasoned delivery skipper and gives a well thought out analysis of 50 or so boats from 25 to 50 feet in length. The book can be found used for around 5 bucks on Amazon. Money well spent.

Jim

[jonboy834]

Originally Posted by kabball

Biggest development of the day was one broker . . . . . Things like a valiant 40 etc. But no to the full keel, he wants to sail etc and all that.
. . . . . this guy made an impact on me.

Currently I am shifting to boats that fit that bill
Valiant 40
Passport 40
The aloha 34 is still in the mix even though it won't last us as long as the kids grow.
What other boats fit that bill well?

Hi there: We are in Vancouver, BC. I just saw your earlier posts.
Perhaps you already made a decision on a cruising vessel? If not, I would like to recommend the Tartan 42, which is a Sparkman & Stephens design.
Ours is #32 of 34 built, and she has taken us to Haida Gwai, as well as two year cruising in Mexico etc - so we can vouch for seaworthiness etc.

The three-cabin layout is perfect for family cruising too, with a double and a single in the Aft cabin, a double in the Forward Cabin, and a pilot Berth plus two settee berths in the Main Saloon!

We have done many upgrades between 2001-2005 before leaving for Mexico, and additional inprovements since then. However, my wife and I are retired and thinking of moving to a small trawler, so interested to sell.

General layout is at:
TARTAN 42 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Pictures of our baota are on the Web at:
http://tinyurl.com/2v49znp




Here are some setails: Tartan 42 offshore sloop with removable Inner Forestay and many recent upgrades. Designed for safe ocean-cruising with 5 ft draft Scheel Keel. Well-maintained with fresh bottom-paint and zincs annually.
Accomodations: Three cabins with 6 berths total, including pilot berth in Main Saloon; Hot and cold pressure water from 4 tanks totalling 135 gals; Lavac Marine Toilet with 3-way valve and Holding Tank with Deck Pumpout; Cabin heater Dickinson Newport Diesel with 3.5 gal day-tank; 3-burner Hillerange Propane stove and oven w/ 2x10# tanks and Xintex S2A shut-down sensor; Adler Barbour 12v Fridge/freezer etc with cold plates in top-load galley cabinet

Cockpit has Bimini/dodger canvas with full side enclosures - for cruising comfort in the PNW!

Engine & Electrical: Perkins 4-108 (2200 hrs since rebuild) with twin Racor filters, Vee-drive and 3-bladed feathering MaxProp; 65 gal diesel tank; Hi-output Balmar Alternator; Freedom 458 200W Inverter/Charger; 2 x 120W Kyocera solar panels with separate controllers; mast-mounted Raytheon radar; Raytheon NAV398 GPS with cockpit repeater, Garmin 182C GPS Chartplotter in Cockpit with remote antenna; ICOM M710 Marine SSB with backstay antenna, and Pactor 2E Modem for weather and e-mail; Standard Horizon VHF Radio linked to GPS; AM/FM/CD Stereo Changer

Steering: Wheel steering plus Monitor windvane with normal and light-wind vanes; ComNav 1420 Autopilot (electro-hydraulic, below decks, with rate stabiliser, and remote in cockpit)

Rigging & Sails: Two-spreader rig with mechanical vang, mast steps, twin Main Halyards; removable Inner Forestay, and Navtec hydraulic adjustable Backstay; Profurl NC42 Roller Furling; total of 9 sails (Main and two others new!) including Spinnaker, Cruising Spinnaker, three Genoas, Staysail, Storm Staysail and Storm Trysail with separate mast track; Lazy Jacks; Mast-mounted Spinnaker Pole, Reaching Strut, Running Backstays etc

All standing, running rigging and lifelines recently replaced etc etc:

Ground Tackle: Bruce 44 lb anchor, with 300 ft 5/16" HT chain and Maxwell Electric Windlass; 35 lb Plow with 21 ft chain plus 225 ft nylon rode; Fortress anchor with 30 ft chain plus 150 ft nylon rode; Custom Stainless two-anchor Bow Bracket etc

Other: 4-man Life raft; Lifesling; Dinghy Motor Lift Crane, Galvanic Isolator; Bilge sensors, 12v Pumps, and FW Pumps, cockpit shower etc



She has bottom-painted and zincs changed annually, This work plus survey was done June, 2012


No action required - Ready for cruising now!

Let me know if possible interest?

[Tom Stormcrowe]

Here's a suggestion for you:

Look around the Michigan area. The market for sailboats is incredibly soft right now and you can get a heck of a lot of boat for the money.

[CnC40sailor]

Well if your truly dedicated to becoming a sailor for the rest of your life, then you really have to get the wife into it!
Obviously, I like the C&C and I Think for you, the landfall series would be a great boat, especially for the money. The problem with them is that even their cruisers (I had a landfall 35) are not great boats for learning to sail. They have very powerful masthead rigs and can really be off putting if not experienced or extremely dedicated.
In addition, the wife won't love them like a hunter or catalina. They are sea boats first, which again is not something the family will love (they don't have the amenities such as the aforementioned boats).

The best boat for you would probably be a catalina or a hunter. They are comfortable and have a brilliant sailplan for shorthanded/inexperienced sailors. The wife will love them and from what I have recently learned are alright at sailing. They would be perfect for you.