The criteria of "blue"

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

I see it differently again - remember this was described as an OSTAR race boat (a very nice one, but still a race boat) - needs to minimize windage. What would you hold on to atop that rounded thingy?

I would be tethered and use the cabin top for standing on while tending my sails, etc. the curve allows better footing instead of a flat sloped or inclined surface, when the boat is heeled, as it would be most of the time in a race. Again, this is how I see it, instead of a low flat cabin with flat surfaces and right angle to cabin top roof and sides.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

... I would much rather be IN a proper SOLAS offshore life raft rather than trying to hug an upside down hull in a storm.

Me too! - but that's not the choice we are faced with. The Rose-Noelle boys were inside their upturned tri - not trying to hug it. They carried on cooking and eating and sleeping inside. A liferaft would have disintegrated long before they were found, despite hundreds of hours of searches for them (in the wrong location), then they would have been shark bait.

But each to his own.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

Very true but still rather precarious. So as blue sailors we have to practise balancing on a ball now?!

The top of the curve is better than an extreme slope.

[El Pinguino]

I think it is/was more about construction.... cold molded allowed strong curved surfaces to be made easily... likewise with GRP.... why design in hard edges if you don't have to?

Its not as if they have hard chines on modern boats...ooops... now I've done it.....

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Me too! - but that's not the choice we are faced with. The Rose-Noelle boys were inside their upturned tri - not trying to hug it. They carried on cooking and eating and sleeping inside. A liferaft would have disintegrated long before they were found, despite hundreds of hours of searches for them (in the wrong location), then they would have been shark bait.

But each to his own.

What were the choices again?

A. Survive in or on a mono that has capsized and turned 360, as they are designed to do?

B. Survive in in or on a cat or tri that has turned turtle?

C. Survive in a life raft?

Or...

Just A or B?

My View?
I think it it highly unlikely that an average human will want to stay INSIDE an overturned catamaran or trimaran in a storm. I bet they would more likely want to be "out" and in a life raft, rather than up to their necks or higher in the dark in cold water amidst the tangle and debris of floating flotsam and all the contents of their boat. I think the "fear factor" would kick in and the desire to survive and to GET OUT would be very strong.

Consequently, I see either capsize as more likely to lead to a trip to the life raft. With the average crew more likely to be willing to stay on or in a mono that has done a 360 than inside an overturned multi in a storm.

But, this is how I see it. I don't doubt others will see it differently.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

I like cats and monos. But...

I see this differently too. I don't see "unsinkable" as necessarily making a boat "blue" or better designed for bluewater sailing or all seas and conditions. In other words, I may prefer a sinkable design over an unsinkable design or type of boat and consider it better designed as a water sailing">blue water sailing craft.

The case of the sailors living in an overturned boat is an exceptional or rare case. I think it much more likely most sailors of an overturned multihull will either exit the boat or die within it, even if it continues to float upside down).

In other words, I think both mono and cat sailors are at risk if their boats overturn in offshore, bluewater, storm conditions.

My POV is influenced by a vivid memory of an overnight offshore race I was in where a large trimaran capsized not far ahead of where I was in high winds and big seas in the Pacific. The USCG hello flew over our boat with spotlight on the water searching for the tri and their crew, some of which were separated from the overturned tri. I don't doubt the tri was floating. But I don't think that was much help to the crew. Partially submerged big slippery hulls are not easy to stand on or stay on with any seas. I know I would much rather be IN a proper SOLAS offshore life raft rather than trying to hug an upside down hull in a storm.

There is a story I read a year ago or so that concerned a flipped Cat. I think it is a relative recent accident but one guy manage to stay in the hull and another two were outside between the two hulls getting continually washed over.

There was one chap who I think was the skipper who was our age who did not make it. He got washed away but if you follow the story his strength and will to live before that seems to have been sucked away very fast.

I think I would also go for the life raft even if it was left tethered to the catamaran. The exposure is just too much outside.

The guy inside had to swim through and activate the beacon I think also. Not sure why lots of cats do not carry life rafts.

If you have a life vest on there is no way you can duck down to get back in to the boat and to get to one of the hulls. It would be just too dangerous with so much mass banging on your head in dark place. The disorientation would be overwhelming. Maybe there is merit in have an access hatch that you can open from the outside but then before you could do that you may have to wait for the sea to calm down

I will try to find the story.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

What were the choices again?
A. Survive in or on a mono that has capsized and turned 360, as they are designed to do?...

Okay Steady, point taken.
Perhaps modern wide-beam monos also stay afloat inverted - I don't know enough about them.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Hi Again.

What follows is posted in a friendly tone and frame of mind.

I like to see photos and illustrations as it makes it easier to "see" the concepts and gear and stuff people often name or talk about on a forum.

I threw this little drawing together to show what I see as the benefit of the curved cabin top on a Solo Racer (e.g. open 40 or open 60) when the boat is heeled. As shown, the GREEN arc (segment of the cabin top curve) is relatively flat when the boat is heeled (shown at 35 degrees from horizontal).

The thin RED line represents a typical Flat Top cabin with the 35 degree heeling angle making it a slippery slope.

Anyway, this is how I see it. If I were needing to reef or check lines or adjust outhaul or do any kind of sail or boom maintenance, I think having that more "horizontal" surface under my feet even while I sailing heeled nonstop, would be appreciated and safer.

So, yes, I would rather walk the ball than slide down the slope.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

...So, yes, I would rather walk the ball than slide down the slope.

Great illustration, but Popeye looks a mite exposed up there! I'd prefer a handrail running along about where his feet are, while I'd walk or more likely crouch along that groove below, where cabin meets deck. A vertical cabin trunk offers a good location for handholds.

I'd never rely solely on a lifeline attached to a harness - too much can go wrong - one hand for the ship, one hand for yourself.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Since the original topic is "Criteria of Blue" I think it fitting to consider the features of boats that make them more suitable for Blue Water sailing.

For example, if I were a Cat owner, I would want an escape hatch on my hulls. Again, I have NOTHING against cats, and I would love to own a big cursing cat….one with escape hatches AND a SOLAS life raft.

For the newer forum members (those who might have joined recently) there was a thread discussing the tragic loss of a sailor when his trimaran (style) boat capsized in the Pacific.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ed-137041.html

I will post a photo of the boat as it was found (without the sailor who was lost at sea). Notice that he did try to stay on the overturned hull, and was apparently there long enough to put a cushion down and ropes and a sun shade over himself. Still he was lost, and if one looks at that surface, it does appear it would be difficult to stay with the boat in any seas. Tragic.

[FastCruiser]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

Hi Again.

What follows is posted in a friendly tone and frame of mind.

I like to see photos and illustrations as it makes it easier to "see" the concepts and gear and stuff people often name or talk about on a forum.

I threw this little drawing together to show what I see as the benefit of the curved cabin top on a Solo Racer (e.g. open 40 or open 60) when the boat is heeled. As shown, the GREEN arc (segment of the cabin top curve) is relatively flat when the boat is heeled (shown at 35 degrees from horizontal).

The thin RED line represents a typical Flat Top cabin with the 35 degree heeling angle making it a slippery slope.

Anyway, this is how I see it. If I were needing to reef or check lines or adjust outhaul or do any kind of sail or boom maintenance, I think having that more "horizontal" surface under my feet even while I sailing heeled nonstop, would be appreciated and safer.

So, yes, I would rather walk the ball than slide down the slope.

Our boat is designed as such with the sides of the cabin and the side decks slanted outward until healed 12 to 14 degrees and then all walking surfaces on the windward side are flat..

[paulanthony]

Is spinach and option or mandatory?

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

Note also that the top is all roundy so waves and wind cant stick to it.

@Steady hand....note two points

1. Mast is forward of round cabin top.
2. Cabin top does not appear to have non skid.

[markwesti]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qf6Sv3A9zs

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

... I bet they would more likely want to be "out" and in a life raft, rather than up to their necks or higher in the dark in cold water amidst the tangle and debris of floating flotsam and all the contents of their boat......
But, this is how I see it. I don't doubt others will see it differently.

It's worrying to see such encouragement to look upon liferafts as our saviour in the context of 'blue'.
1. Liferafts only work if you can guarantee help is on its way - not always a good option in the deep blue, unless you are smack in a shipping lane.
2. I forget the figures from the Fastnet disaster (in which search helicopters were in the air within minutes) but so many lost their lives in attempting to transfer to a liferaft, or when their liferaft disintegrated, rolled, flooded, that the strong recommendation from that incident was not to abandon the mother ship "unless in imminent danger of sinking."
3. I believe many, many yachts were recovered with hulls intact (minus masts, rudders, etc), while their crews that had abandoned them for a liferaft were never recovered.

Maybe someone has the exact numbers from that incident?

Upside down yacht I'd want out - upside down cat: no way.