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Old 09-05-2015, 11:20   #466
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

NevisDog I see your in New Zeland . I would like to ask the question , what are your cruising aspirations ? Do you plan global or local ? Sorry if you have said this else where .Here is my thought , why not come to the U.S. buy and outfit the boat here and then take off from here ? A guy I know did just that . Here is his boat , (i'm not trying to sell it for him) http://www.westsail.com/forsale/mangoe.htm
I know this is not the type of boat you are looking for it's just a example . Here are some 32's for sale, again no connection just example http://www.westsail.com/Westfs.htm
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Old 09-05-2015, 13:31   #467
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Sorry to harp on about price but it's a key player for some cruisers, as is stability - most other things can be fixed, but not price and definitely not stability.

A 1972 Islander 36 with Monitor wind vane and apparently in pretty good nick just sold here at auction for NZ$30,000 (about US$25,000). Over 40 years old and hull looks like new, only 'a few cosmetic blisters' below, decks sound, inside a little weatherworn but quite tidy, plenty of good sails. So, occasionally a good, sound, basic, 'blue-water' boat does turn up from time to time!
The Islander 36 is pretty to the eye and a nice sailor but would need a very good inspection before taken offshore. There were several serious issues with these boats 30 years ago that probably have not gone away.
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Old 09-05-2015, 13:48   #468
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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...Here is his boat, (i'm not trying to sell it for him) ...www.westsail.com/forsale/... I know this is not the type of boat you are looking for it's just a example
The Westsail 32 is on my radar as a 'bluewater capable' cruiser. Not even barnakeil can dispute her suitability for offshore. A little slow and I'd need to check out her GZ curve but certainly offshore capable.

I did mention I had one more year until I cast off and wander the oceans. I also mentioned the wider choice of craft in America and Europe, an option I'm seriously exploring.

Heading offshore in small boats is only suicidal for those who lack experience. Note that heading offshore in a larger craft is also suicidal for anyone lacking experience. One should not confuse lack funds with lack of experience. Is barnakeil deriding Joshua Slocum because he refitted a rotting hulk and sailed her around the world? Was he a fool for risking his neck in a 'budget' boat? Come on barnakeil - stop being such a snob - small boats tend to do far more blue-water miles than larger craft that sit in their marina berths.

Safety requires only two things: a capable skipper and a strong, seaworthy vessel - nothing more. I can understand why this forum needs to hammer home the safety message - just don't try it with me, thanks.
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Old 09-05-2015, 13:53   #469
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
check out Gozzard Yachts Boat Information - Gozzard Yachts Brokerage. - has a lot of info about different aspects of design and construction. Interesting stuff.

Life's to short for an ugly boat they say on their website. And I agree. But why are their boats so ugly then?



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Old 09-05-2015, 13:58   #470
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Life's to short for an ugly boat they say on their website. And I agree. But why are their boats so ugly then?



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These boats and their sister ships the Bayfieds have a following and while not to my taste they are far from ugly! I guess its like women and the choice you made, not too many guys think their wife is ugly!
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Old 09-05-2015, 14:43   #471
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
Sorry to harp on about price but it's a key player for some cruisers, as is stability - most other things can be fixed, but not price and definitely not stability.

A 1972 Islander 36 with Monitor wind vane and apparently in pretty good nick .... hull looks like new, only 'a few cosmetic blisters' below,........
Factor in between NZ$25/30k to fix the 'cosmetic' blisters..... then sails and rigging.. doesn't look like much of bargain to me.
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Old 09-05-2015, 16:26   #472
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Factor in between NZ$25/30k to fix the 'cosmetic' blisters.....
I stripped the entire bottom of a 26 ft yacht in Australia that didn't have cosmetic blisters - it had all-over deep, spongy, putrid pox - and rebuilt the entire hull with epoxy/dynel for under $500. Took me a couple months. Cosmetic blisters are cosmetic - as surveyors and boatbuilders, we need to learn the difference.

This forum is quite negative about costs of blue - have many others been ripped off $25-30k for work that should cost a few hundred? Is that the problem here? Or are you people the ones doing the rip-off?
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Old 09-05-2015, 16:38   #473
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I stripped the entire bottom of a 26 ft yacht in Australia that didn't have cosmetic blisters - it had all-over deep, spongy, putrid pox - and rebuilt the entire hull with epoxy/dynel for under $500. Took me a couple months. Cosmetic blisters are cosmetic - as surveyors and boatbuilders, we need to learn the difference.

This forum is quite negative about costs of blue - have many others been ripped off $25-30k for work that should cost a few hundred? Is that the problem here? Or are you people the ones doing the rip-off?
I'm only negative about 'old'.

How do you know the boat in question does just have cosmetic blisters?

That said I have seen more than a few boats pass through here getting osmo jobs and I look at the hull and think 'osmo... what osmo?'
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Old 09-05-2015, 17:06   #474
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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...How do you know the boat in question does just have cosmetic blisters?...
I'm not inspecting yachts advertised for sale yet - only watching the final sale prices at auction to keep abreast of current prices here (which tend to be higher than the ads I've seen overseas). What I think we can all agree on is that all-over osmosis is a deal-breaker in most instances (the yacht is beyond economical repair), as is serious deck delamination (mentioned by someone earlier). But I certainly won't be one of those scared off by the mention of 'a few cosmetic blisters' in the sales ad - I'll inspect her like any other boat.

Old boats need very careful survey, but newer, pricier boats are even more seriously in need of careful survey. In an old boat, most of the problems have become obvious - not so with younger boats. I wouldn't even purchase a new build without survey and factoring in $20-25k to prepare for offshore.
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Old 09-05-2015, 17:31   #475
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

NevisDog I'm not trying to push you into a Westsail (couldn't if I tried , right) but here is a interesting situation , the guy that was the Westsail GM is still in business and has for offer this manual about Westsails now that they are over 30 yrs. old . It covers pretty much every problem and up grades a Westsail has ever had.
WORLD CRUISER YACHT CO.
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Old 09-05-2015, 18:12   #476
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

I've read through this thread and am not sure I've learned much.

It doesn't matter because we have the boats we have and we are keeping them.

Still I'd like to talk a little about our "big" boat, what I have considered and done. It may not be right, but it is one relative newbies story.

Our boat search had a variety of requirements including the capability to cross the Atlantic and do some rough coastal sailing. We were limited to about $100k. It had to be able to hold up to six for an extended time, but should be able to be single handed. And she needed to be comfortable for my wife is prone to sea sickness, but getting much better.

We bought a 1985ish Pape SteelMaid which had a lot of refit work done. New engine, new sails, partly finished interior, newish electronics. While I haven't kept track we probably spent another $40 or $50k on her and a lot of sweat equity. But we think we have a pretty good boat.

I think may would criticize her weight (20 tons) and her keel is anything but hydrodynamic. It's something like 27" flat across the bottom and shaped like a landing barge, flat right up the front of the keel. She deffinetly wants a good breeze to get going and I've bought two used lighter air sails.

I find her decks a wee bit narrow ( compared to our small boat) but far better than any production cruiser. She has a squarish coach roof which is easy to work on. We installed radar and AIS which I think is essential for this cruising we do. And she has a ton of shrouds, 11 in all, mostly 10mm and a stout mast. We painted her with Duraback, not fashionable but like a shoe magnet, feel very secure under foot.

I know she will lay on her side in calmish waters without shipping water, don't ask how I know, please. She also has a fair bit of tumblehome in the top chine. When considering her in light of this thread I think that the tumblehome, in conjunction with the coach roof (she's a walk through cc) would encourage her to roll back up.

We have two big cockpit drains, but I can't imagine the cockpit getting pooped. A high bridge deck just in case. Down below she has a real nav table, kero stove, and a single level sole, no steps. There is a separate berth cabin set up like a pilot berth, and a real pilot berth, but I sleep on the settee with a lee cloth when single handing.

I need to practice heaving to more, but I have the sense she will be fine.

All in all I find much to recommend her for our sailing and think she will do just fine. I've had her out in F6 to F7. It was intimidating and scary. But when I sat long enough watching the boat move I realized she was doing just fine, if not quite heading where I wanted her to go. I, however, was scared.

The keel arguments are interesting but totally irrelevant. The keel will never fall off nor be significantly damaged by grounding. Ditto the rudder. Fuel and water tanks are integral. It's just not an issue. I stupidly wandered into a rock garden one night and only got out by motoring in reverse using the rudder to push off rocks. Not a "blue water" concern, but real life concern for me. So as to the keel and rudder issues so much energy is out into, for me they simply don't exist.

My longest passage in her so far is 7 days, alone. I've done about 4,000 miles, 3,000 alone. I'm comfortable with the boat. I trust the boat. I know the boat.

The one think of concern that I will work on over time is improving the inverted water integrity and floor board integrity.

Whether or not others consider her "blue water" I don't know, I'm sure opinions will vary. But for me, she works.
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Old 09-05-2015, 18:12   #477
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by NevisDog View Post
............
Old boats need very careful survey, but newer, pricier boats are even more seriously in need of careful survey. In an old boat, most of the problems have become obvious - not so with younger boats. I wouldn't even purchase a new build without survey and factoring in $20-25k to prepare for offshore.
I am quite willing to accept that my boat had negative worth when I arrived in NZ last year - mind you customs insisted on using a valuation from when I was last here 13 years ago.

Having owned her for 21 years she was fully depreciated in my eyes and owed me nothing.If I had sold her then I would have accepted that every dollar realised was pure profit.

The cost of the overhaul is probably not far short of her realistic sale price today.

Better the devil you know etc....
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Old 09-05-2015, 18:50   #478
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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All in all I find much to recommend her for our sailing and think she will do just fine. I've had her out in F6 to F7. It was intimidating and scary. But when I sat long enough watching the boat move I realized she was doing just fine, if not quite heading where I wanted her to go. I, however, was scared.
Could you elaborate on what was scaring you? You say she is heavy, is it that she takes time for the buoyancy to overcome her inertia in a trough? or something else...

Would be very interested to know.
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Old 09-05-2015, 19:00   #479
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Life's to short for an ugly boat they say on their website. And I agree. But why are their boats so ugly then?

I see a beauty. You really think they are ugly? There was a time when I would have agreed but the more boats I look at the more this form becomes my ideal.

Just shows. I would have bet a quid to a dollar that everyone would have said they are good looking boats. Interesting.
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Old 09-05-2015, 19:54   #480
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
Could you elaborate on what was scaring you? You say she is heavy, is it that she takes time for the buoyancy to overcome her inertia in a trough? or something else...

Would be very interested to know.
It was 2am, 49° N, 20 miles off shore. The anemometer read 26 knots, but clearly it was blowing MUCH stronger, the anemometer read 26 no matter what, the wind generator sounded like a C-130 taking off, she was healing 30° and riding with the port rail in the water, the reef blew out of the staysail and I was a bit over canvassed with one reef in the main.

Had someone been with me I would have gone on the fore deck and put in a second reef in the main and re-reefed the staysail. But it was cold and dark and heeling. I was scared of going on deck and scared she was over powered. I was scared conditions would deteoriate even more.

What I did do was let out the main a bit, and let the staysail out a bit. She eased up a bit. I sat there for about 20 minutes just watching and considering my options.

Upon observation, the boat was doing fine. She was handling the waves well. She was behaving, not jumping around, just chugging forward at about 4 or 5 knots. The wind was predicted to drop in the morning. So I went back to sleep. It seemed the reasonable thing to do.
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