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Steadman Uhlich · 13-03-2018, 10:45

Feature: Walk OVER to Aft Cabin

It appears this boat has a "Walk OVER" aft cabin layout, that would require entering the aft cabin via the center cockpit (rather than "walk UNDER" or through the saloon).

Given the wet, drizzly, weather that is common in the PNW (and some other locations), I would prefer to stay warm and dry when going from the aft cabin to the galley, head, saloon, etc. So, I would prefer a walk UNDER on a boat that has an aft cabin layout.

What about you?
Would you prefer the Walk OVER design?
If so, why?

Delancey · 13-03-2018, 12:02

A comment or two has been made about the aft cabin arrangement.

If I recall correctly from the original post, the designer expressed that one of the intended uses of the boat was to take the designer's two grandkids cruising with them on occasion.

I imagine if I had two grandkids to take cruising with me a boat with this type of cabin arrangement would be perfect!

This boat isn't everyone's ideal folks, it's not supposed to be.

NevisDog · 13-03-2018, 12:14

Good question about the lack of passageway to aft cabin. I guess that makes it a pleasant retreat in harbour but not so useful during night watch changes, when I'd rather be sleeping closer to the galley and chart table.

The rudder arrangement is my absolute favourite feature. Many parts of the world don't involve stern-to mooring, many have deep water to within a stone's throw of the shore. This boat seems more aimed at serious offshore, where the water is deep and the primary concern for the careful navigator is striking a floating object. For that environment, the long, cutaway keel and attached rudder are well suited: steering and handling not much different to a fin keel due to the extra-large aperture and cutaway forefoot. I'd be much more concerned about damage to my rudder from flotsam than from backing into a dock, which is why this arrangement suits me. Damage to a transom-hung rudder is very unlikely to impact the integrity of the hull, so "bulletproof" seems a good description. Being able to take the ground without falling over or causing damage is a seriously useful feature of a long keel IMO.

Steadman Uhlich · 13-03-2018, 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delancey

A comment or two has been made about the aft cabin arrangement.

If I recall correctly from the original post, the designer expressed that one of the intended uses of the boat was to take the designer's two grandkids cruising with them on occasion.

I imagine if I had two grandkids to take cruising with me a boat with this type of cabin arrangement would be perfect!

This boat isn't everyone's ideal folks, it's not supposed to be.

We see things differently.

IF I had grandkids (or guests) cruising with me, I would not want them to have to cross through an open center cockpit to get to the saloon, head, or galley, especially in the rain, or while on passage at night, etc.

Delancey · 13-03-2018, 14:29

Yeah. Personally, I'm not real big on sleeping all the way aft underway. I prefer to sleep closer to the center of the boat where the motion of the boat is less when underway.

At anchor it looks like a simple tarp over the boom would easily protect the cockpit from rain without the need for a garish full-enclosure Bimini that would otherwise spoil the look of the boat. Nice thing about center-cockpit boats.

Who knows maybe the plan is for grandma and grandpa to take the aft cabin when the grandkids are aboard.

Delancey · 13-03-2018, 15:20

On second thought, maybe grandpa snores real bad and keeps grandma up at night so the separate cabins are so grandma can get some sleep?

jtsailjt · 13-03-2018, 17:08

I like its look, but then I'm on my second Perry designed boat (Nordic 44 and Tayana 47) so guess I tend to like a lot of his designs. It looks rugged but manages to be sort of stylish in its own way.

I do like the idea of a transom hung rudder and think it has lots of advantages, but I can see that it might be a hindrance if med mooring a lot. The possibility of damaging it has been mentioned but if that ever happens it seems to me the other side of that is it could be repaired or replaced much more easily than a spade of skeg hung rudder which would definitely require a haulout to remove or work on.

Personally, I'd hate the separate aft cabin with no ability to get to the main saloon without going up through the cockpit. If I hear something in the night I want to be able to go check it out without climbing up through the cockpit.

I wonder about the reasoning behind building it out of carbon since weight obviously isn't a big issue. It seems to me that it could be built a lot less expensively using more traditional glass or glass/Kevlar without losing much. But I have no numbers to support that opinion so would like to hear Perry's thoughts on this choice.

I don't mind the 7' draft but with a lightweight carbon hull, this is going to have a lot of ballast and be a SERIOUSLY stiff boat with incredible ultimate stability as well. That's what he said he wants it for, to bash into anything the PNW might throw at him and handle it with aplomb. It looks to me like this boat will fill that bill perfectly. This is a boat that you can take anywhere and be confident it won't let you down in any weather, and that's a very nice feeling when it gets a bit lonely way out there. And looking at the hull shape, though the full keel adds some wetted surface so will be slowed a bit in light breezes, it looks like it has enough sail area so this won't be noticed. When the wind pipes up it's going to be stiff, comfortable, and faster than we expect it to be. This is a boat I'd love to sail and cruise.

I also like the fact that, though it's a transom hung rudder, he has taken care to protect both the prop and the rudder. I gained this appreciation about 25 years ago while running downwind with about a 20 knot breeze in my full keel Hinckley Pilot 35 when I noticed a slight bump and a vibration for just a second or so more, and then silence. Somehow it occurred to me what it probably was so I looked back just in time to see a telephone pole

that I had hit broadside surface spinning just behind the transom. I had hit it right in the middle and it had rolled along the bottom of my keel causing no damage at all. It hasn't happened to me again since so I know it doesn't happen often, but whenever I see a boat hauled out with an unprotected prop and a thin, vertical leading edge of the rudder, I think what a mess that telephone pole would make of it.

Steadman Uhlich · 14-03-2018, 06:42

Yesterday Robert Perry added these comments about his Buppy Boat design.

"I was sitting here, as usual, yesterday afternoon, looking at my pilot house Buppy boat and I got to thinking the pilot house looked a bit too high. Now if you want to drive from inside you will need that height for visibility. But let's say you will rarely, if ever want to drive from inside.

Because as now planned the engine is under the cockpit I don't have any constraints on the pilot house cabin sole location, i e. I can drop it if I like. So I dropped it and lowered the pilot house.

This gives me more usable volume under the side decks. I think it also gives the boat a more balanced look with better proportions. On a day when there was not much debris in the water (and we get some humungous debris in the PNW, LOGS!) you could sit in the dinette with your AP remote and chug down the Sound in the rain, happy as Larry. Or be a man and put your Helly Hansons on and sit in the cockpit with your pipe upside down to keep the rain out.

For those of you who struggled with the look of the outboard rudder I removed it and went with an inboard spade rudder. As long as I'm doing that I might as well do a more modern shorter chord fin keel. I'd keep the draft at 7' but reduce wetted surface significantly.

I'd do a drop down transom boarding door, similar to those I did in JAKATAN and the PSC 63 ketch. Personally I think I'd prefer davits. Dinks are in and out of the water all the time up here. I'm not wild about towing the dink . Our square chop can make that problematic. Pragmatism makes davits appealing to me. I'd use pedestal steering.

I got rid of the steering station below and I added a long, deep settee to starboard. This would allow the crew to spread out and relax in addition to providing an extra berth in a pinch.

Still not fooling myself that there is a market for a boat like this. The "market" today does not know enough about boats and sailing to recognize the value of this set of features. That said, this is a "sensible" boat, if you like boats. I also think it's quite jaunty looking. A bit pugnacious looking with that strong bow profile and raised sheer, "You talkin' to me?"

In a moment I'll post the same boat with the davits and stern boarding arrangement shown. Then I'll take the dogs to the beach and give you time to ruminate and react. Working by myself these days I need your input to keep my vital bodily fluids feeding my creativity."

Steadman Uhlich · 14-03-2018, 06:45

Robert Perry added these comments and new drawing yesterday.

"Here is the low pilot house version with the stern features added. I'm not wild about davits but I'm thinking having the dink on the foredeck may be more trouble than I want. I can see the dink going in and out of the water frequently."

Matt Johnson · 14-03-2018, 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steadman Uhlich

Robert Perry added these comments and new drawing yesterday.

"Here is the low pilot house version with the stern features added. I'm not wild about davits but I'm thinking having the dink on the foredeck may be more trouble than I want. I can see the dink going in and out of the water frequently."

100x better boat in my opinion.

Matt

jtsailjt · 14-03-2018, 08:17

Now it's a whole different boat from the one that was his favorite just yesterday! It went from full keel to a fin with spade rudder and from a center cockpit to an aft cockpit. it sounds to me like he really doesn't know what his favorite boat is yet. That's fine just as long as he figures it out before construction begins.

I do like the interior layout a lot better now but I think he should have stuck with the full keel. I understand wanting davits so I guess that means no transom hung rudder, which I thought added to the look he was going for, but he could still have kept the full keel so his rudder and prop would be protected from those logs he mentions. What's the advantage of a fin keel and spade rudder in a boat that's to be used the way he says this one will be? Other than saving a little wetted surface and making it easier to get in and out of tight slips, I don't see that as being much of an advantage in a boat to be used primarily out cruising rather than in and out of marina slips.

Polux · 14-03-2018, 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steadman Uhlich

Robert Perry added these comments and new drawing yesterday.

"Here is the low pilot house version with the stern features added. I'm not wild about davits but I'm thinking having the dink on the foredeck may be more trouble than I want. I can see the dink going in and out of the water frequently."

All this story about Bob Perry's ideal cruiser leaves me a bit amazed. Is going Bob Perry to cruise now and want a personal boat for cruising? If I remember well his posts on Sailnet he sailed occasionally but did not cruise, at least what we call cruise, extensively.

That is not a criticism, just an observation, many boat designers even if they obviously sail don't cruise extensively and most of them, like Bob Perry, come from the racing field.

Regarding Bob Perry ideal cruising boat, it seems that the Nordic 44, a fin keeller, is also one of his personal choices as a boat:

"If any boat I designed deserves to inherit the Valiant 40 crown it would be the Nordic 44. It is more my personal mix than the others"

jtsailjt · 14-03-2018, 09:32

Polux, I think he said that about the Nordic 44 quite awhile ago and has said similar things about many other of his designs since then. That's not a criticism of him because after all, he's drawn a lot of great boats over the years so it's natural to like each one the best, depending on your mood that day. I owned a Nordic 44 for 11 years and think it's a really great boat. It's bulletproof in bad weather and does everything pretty well and they were very well made in Bellingham, Washington. About the only criticism of the N44 I can think of is that the cockpit seems smallish for lounging in while at anchor and, while the large destroyer wheel allows you to reach it while sailing while sitting in the perfect spot for visibility on the leeward coamings, it divides the cockpit in half so there's no chance to lay down in the cockpit. I much prefer the cockpit in my Tayana 47 because the seats extend continuously the length of it so you can really stretch out when you want to. But I consider that a very small criticism and I understand the advantage to it while sailing.

I like the more traditional look of this new boat that he's designed a lot better than the "Swanlike" look of the Nordic but it seems to me that if he wants a personal cruising boat, he could pick up a used Nordic 44, spend $100K-$150K updating it, and still come out almost $1M ahead of what this new carbon cutter will cost. But at this stage of his life and career, I can understand why he'd feel like he's earned the right to put economics aside and have his own personal cruising boat built just for him.

Polux · 14-03-2018, 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

... he could pick up a used Nordic 44, spend $100K-$150K updating it, and still come out almost $1M ahead of what this new carbon cutter will cost. But at this stage of his life and career, I can understand why he'd feel like he's earned the right to put economics aside and have his own personal cruising boat built just for him.

Do you mean he is having one million 43ft long keeler built for him and he is going to cruise?

I am not so sure.