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Old 05-02-2014, 14:20   #46
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Re: How much trouble could I get into?

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"What's the worst that could happen..."

Aw, come on guys! That's an invitation for sea stories and "One night, at band camp..." tales to be told around a fireplace in a good pub, if I've ever heard one.

First the boat can sucker you in, it needs nothing. Wait, it needs this hundred dollar part. Wait, it needs this $300 part. Ooops, broke that, needs the $500 mechanic call. Wait, he says it needs a $2500 overhaul. Oh, and that bulkhead shifted a little, not to worry, it only will cost a grand to replace. Wait a minute, why is the deck dripping? Ooops, needs recoring, but you've got so much into the boat already...

IF you don't know the perils of surveying, the boat can suck you in, suck you dry, and spit out the chewed bones while you try to pay for hazmat disposal.

Or, it can sink in a channel, leaving you to pay the salvage and clearance costs (and the State will often chose someone fast, not cheap) plus the environmental fees to contain and remove your fuel and oils and wash all the ducks and polish all the lobster traps. After you've put in all that extra work AND lost the vacation time.

I'm not saying it will, just that the questions begs for a tale-telling competition. Oh, and even worse? While you're fixing the boat, your girlfriend could fall in love with the tow boat driver and run away with him. Or her.

See? Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse? (VBG)

Now, someone please, fetch another coupla' pints and tell me what else could go wronger!

(Anyone follow the sea adventures in the Non Sequitor cartoon strip?)
Depressing but unfortunately much closer to reality than most posts in this thread and other threads like it.
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Old 05-02-2014, 14:24   #47
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Re: How much trouble could I get into?

Oooh, I forgot the big easy one. The boat is bought cheap, at a federal auction. Turns out the POs were arrested for cocaine smuggling...and while you're being checked out by some bored Coasties, their dog alerts! Wow, someone missed the last brick of coke that was under the holding tank!

(That's actually happened, especially with cars and hidden compartments.)
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Old 05-02-2014, 18:30   #48
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Re: How much trouble could I get into?

My most expensive costs was the greedy boat tranporter, 600 $ for 8 miles and within width limits. And all the surprise fees in the boatyard, oh, I'm sorry didn't scotty tell you? No , we paid cash upfront remember? Hmm, seems you have two accounts 2! What??
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Old 05-02-2014, 18:48   #49
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Re: How much trouble could I get into?

We coulda put you on a mooring for half the price... you didn't say that when you put her in the slip. You said 14 days no charge!

Lesson learned... ask ahead, don't leave any stone unturned, pay upfront and ask about hidden fees, what's includedin that price? Whats not included?
Get it in writing. Keep your receipts. We were once scrutinized for suspicion of collaboration with a fired yard employee. Cover your arse!
Most pricy part was a water pump on Amazon, and that was way cheaper than any local price including West, jamestown, defender. Shop around. Use consignment shops. good solid used stuff
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Old 05-02-2014, 18:52   #50
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Re: How much trouble could I get into?

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spend the time between now and then wisely - by that I mean not only by educating self via internet (boat market, likely fixes and costs for) but also in real world with boots on the ground in the intended locale for purchase / use. The whole world is not on the internet!, and that especially applies to low value items like unloved boats. Both internet and real world also useful for making contacts for when the time comes.
Good advice, the more boats you look at the more you'll start to notice, just don't jump on the first one you see. So what if you miss one bargain because you hesitated? More times than not you'll save yourself a headache, if one goes by there'll always be another, just keep looking on all the right places. It's better than watching tv.
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Old 05-02-2014, 19:00   #51
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Re: How much trouble could I get into?

You would not believe what wealthy people, or people with too much money toss out because its, dirty or not up with the Jones's. Ss princess stove, radar and 50ft of cable, ss railing, winches, bollards, gallons of perfect bottom paint, brand new fittings, brushes, rollers, pans, fiberglass cloth and matt, plywood, teak, mahogany, gas tanks both plastic and aluminum.
Even if you don't use it , it sells on craigslist! And goes in your budget.
And in ct you could damn near pay for your drinking habit by having a can or bucket set aside for all the 10cent throw aways
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Old 05-02-2014, 19:17   #52
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Re: How much trouble could I get into?

In all reality, you are going to put maybe 500 miles on this boat max in one summer (probably more like 100..or like most of the boats in my marina..20)..but, we'll think large....
Our P30 was a wreck, and I mean serious wreck when I got it..including a big section of deck pulled out (with the life line stantion) when the PO had a few too many Miller Lites...sailed it back 90 miles in Lake Erie while it was kind of in a nasty state(the lake, and the boat) afterstepping the mast the night before.
Fast forward 1 1/2 yrs, been fixing stuff, and adding creature comforts like a head, cushions, steps that didn't fall in, etc. But really, other than the rudder bearings, and the deck fix (and really that wouldn't stop you from sailing it) oh, and a carb cleaning/replace stupid NAPA electric fuel pump..we haven't done squat that would stop you from doing what you want to do. We are on it every weekend from April to Oct and sail it like crazy.
If you can look at it (or someone who can) and say..good bones, deck isn't caving in (and I mean caving in- you want one season!!I know all sorts of people that sail all the time that has soft spots), keel wont fall off (P30 is encapsulated), rigging isn't completely screwed, and sails are useable (again- kind of like the deck- my main was soft as a diaper since we bought it- Meh, still kinda worked, so whatever, momma wanted a nice V berth) THEN GO FOR IT!!
Different if you wanted to keep it for a long time (I knew what I was getting into)..that's a whole different mind set- but for one year..easy.

Now, if you don't know boats/sailing...that's a little different, you can get in a lot of trouble...like in a hurry............

Before I get jumped on- crazy repairs/upgrades this winter, new
stantions, life lines, sails, furler, fore and back stays...so, eventually - you have to do it!!

PS...if you would be interested in a Pearson Ariel that I would leave in tomorrow for anywhere (I trust her like crazy- just a great little boat), I have one for sale..
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Old 07-02-2014, 16:04   #53
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Re: How much trouble could I get into?

Food for thought just to make a point not to brag. I have a degree in Marine Engineering and Systems Engineering from MMA and completed the MMarE program at USMMA, and had extensive factory training in various Propulsion Systems over the years. I've run yachts from crew to chief engineer to captain for almost 30 years 5 of which was commercial shipping.

And I still hire a surveyor no matter what.

And I still overlook or miss issues even to this day. Even a Dr. sees a Dr.
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Old 07-02-2014, 16:43   #54
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Re: How much trouble could I get into?

Sealubber, good points!
Btw, I commend you on your accomplishments, seriously.
Boat/us requires a survey for membership if I'm not misstaken. And if you get involved in an insurance battle, a survey is a good thing to have providing the survey shows great value in the boat.
On the other hand , there are owners and builders that dont have insurance or any degrees or certifications. Yet they sail ! And some quite well i might add.
I have a degree in shipbuilding theory and practice, maritime construction. I believe book knowledge is useless if it cannot be applied hands on !
Then we have Carroll Shelby, a chicken farmer ! A legend in his own time......
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Old 07-02-2014, 17:20   #55
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Re: How much trouble could I get into?

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Originally Posted by thruska View Post
Sealubber, good points!
Btw, I commend you on your accomplishments, seriously.
Boat/us requires a survey for membership if I'm not misstaken. And if you get involved in an insurance battle, a survey is a good thing to have providing the survey shows great value in the boat.
On the other hand , there are owners and builders that dont have insurance or any degrees or certifications. Yet they sail ! And some quite well i might add.
I have a degree in shipbuilding theory and practice, maritime construction. I believe book knowledge is useless if it cannot be applied hands on !
Then we have Carroll Shelby, a chicken farmer ! A legend in his own time......
I never said people can''t have vast amounts of knowledge without a formal education and even more knowledge than the ones with a formal education. The current chief engineer on the Yacht I'm running right now has zero formal education and is a brilliant engineer. We have a 2nd brilliant Engineer as well to back up the chief engineers brilliance. And underway on a long haul we typically contract a 3rd brilliant engineer to back up the 2nd and chief engineers brilliance. Now that's because to repower this vessel would cost about 1.5 million in machinery alone because she has two massive turbines.

You should always pay a price for a 2nd trained pair of eyes whether that's formal training or just plain ole' hands on experience but make sure it's in depth. No matter how big or small a boat or price.

Now let me give you an example. A good friend of mine who is formally trained not only on the marine engineering side but he's also a highly qualified Non-destructive Tester.

And like me his only job has been in the marine field and he's about 60 years old now. 10 years on me. Well last year he bought himself a small older sailboat and did all the typical things all surveyors would do + much more knowing him.

He decided to sail her down to Key West gets two miles out under sail off of NY and boom! the keel snaps right off. So he calls and tells me the story and I asked him if he had talked to this local surveyor I knew where he bought the thing. He calls him up and tells him the story. The surveyor says... I could have told that was going to happen.

See... this surveyor had surveyed this boat a couple of years ago and on the sea trial he noticed there was a little faint (very faint) pumping of water in the bilge. Turns out the keel had recently been dropped and was not properly repaired. To prove he was not making this up he sent the report he wrote to my friend.

It does not matter how much you've read, know, experienced or whatever. You get a 2nd pair of trained eyes no matter what.
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Old 07-02-2014, 17:51   #56
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Re: How much trouble could I get into?

We're talking a $7,000 boat for the summer not a $50,000-$250,000 boat. If you have some knowledge of boats especially sailboats you should be able to survey an old boat on your own well enough to get you through the summer if you have any sort of knack for it at all.

Also, remember this, a formal education only makes you better at what you are already good at. I'm a tech type but majored in history so I could learn to write somewhat (plus I was sick of tech/science/computer programming classes). I'll never be able to write as well as my artist son however nor will he ever be a mechanic or an engineer of any type....

It's a hardwired thing. Of course, there are some that are good with both sides of the brain but the majority are better one way or the other. Any moron that says a formal education or book learning is a waste hasn't had much education. As I said before, it can make you really good at what you already have a flare at.
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Old 07-02-2014, 18:32   #57
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Re: How much trouble could I get into?

Yes, a boat like that can suck you in. And it can go south bad. But seriously, you are looking for a boat to beat around in. There was a boat on my pier, an Irwin 30 or something, that two guys owned. What a disaster. Port and starboard parts didn't match, rigging was trash, deck had no gelcoat left and was soggy as wet bread. Man, did they have fun with it! They finally gave it away to charity, as it had like zero resale value.

My point is it does NOT have to be in really good shape. If you carry a hand held VHF (and ideally a dingy of some sort -- even a cheap inflatable), you are not going to die going for a day sail. And if you have a halfway functional boat, the likely scenario is a dead engine or dismasting, both of which can be covered by a BoatUS policy. And a liability-only policy won't require a survey and will cover all the environmental stuff and even salvaging the sunk boat.

To maximize your sailing time in this price range, I'd find a boat in the water ready to sail. The "survey" should including going out. See that the engine runs, the sails (both of them!) go up and down and trim in and out. See that the running lights work. A "better" boat that "only needs a few things" may give you a really nice boat for not a lot of money (but then again.....), but if you spend the first 2 months of ownership -- well, you lost half of what you were trying to buy!

Perhaps even better would be a "loaner" if you could find it. Somebody who has a boat that is dying at the pier in their front yard. Somebody who would love to see it used, see somebody clean the bird crap off. And, if you can get it for $500/month in rent, that's still a great deal.

Here on the Chesapeake, I see a LOT of boats that look like candidates. I've often wondered what would happen if you went and knocked on the door...

Harry
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Old 07-02-2014, 18:41   #58
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Re: How much trouble could I get into?

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
We're talking a $7,000 boat for the summer not a $50,000-$250,000 boat. If you have some knowledge of boats especially sailboats you should be able to survey an old boat on your own well enough to get you through the summer if you have any sort of knack for it at all.

Also, remember this, a formal education only makes you better at what you are already good at. I'm a tech type but majored in history so I can learn to write somewhat. I'll never be able to write as well as my artist son however nor will he ever be a mechanic or an engineer of any type....

It's a hardwired thing. Of course, there are some that are good with both sides of the brain but the majority are better one way or the other. Any moron that says a formal education or book learning is a waste hasn't had much education. As I said before, it can make you really good at what you already have a flare at.
I do not agree, The boat my friend purchased was an 11k 30ft boat. If it had been a lot of boaters I've met over the years that incident could have resulted in death easily.

the cheaper and smaller the boat the cheaper the haul out and survey. I know surveyors that just have a $100 - $150 minimum (many) actually.

This was not meant to to open a discussion on the value of an education or education vs experience my earlier point was despite my education and years of experience I still hire another set of eyes.

If you buy a 7k boat and overlook a few small issues those small issues can turn into medium or very large issues that can exceed the value of the vessel quickly.

I personally don't consider 7k chump change. Anything above what I would give to a pan handler I strongly consider where it's going.

If I told the owner of the yacht I run now that we have to fix this do-hickey here but it's "only" 7k even with his vast 9 figure fortune I'm pretty sure he would fire me and I would do the same to any of my crew.

When I was the chief engineer on a freighter due to our razor thin margins we would even do our best to recover lost 2 dollar impellers. Everything in our arsenal of tools and parts were accounted for.

There is something to be said for this. While I can appreciate you're way of managing your money and purchases. 7k might be the life savings and budget for a person reading this thread. And advising them to self survey experienced or not is downright reckless. I've met people that have never owned a boat with no marine experience that actually think they know what they are doing when buying a boat.

What if they take that 7k vessel a mile offshore with the wife and kids and it sinks? Some people that read these forums do not have the (marine) common sense or experience to thoroughly inspect a boat and we should consider that when we post things that are regarding soundness and safety.
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Old 07-02-2014, 20:03   #59
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Re: How much trouble could I get into?

Yeesch ! Lighten up Francis !
I'm not knockin education, never did. You
read a little more into that !
And I'm not a moron , thank you !
Your buddy should have asked for a survey from the PO, and the PO should have provided it... in a perfect world!
I'd like the names of those certified surveyors who work for peanuts...
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Old 07-02-2014, 20:46   #60
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Re: How much trouble could I get into?

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Yeesch ! Lighten up Francis !
I'm not knockin education, never did. You
read a little more into that !
And I'm not a moron , thank you !
Your buddy should have asked for a survey from the PO, and the PO should have provided it... in a perfect world!
I'd like the names of those certified surveyors who work for peanuts...
I never said you knocked education nor called you a moron. I merly made a comparison and also agreed with you.

My buddy got a survey report, an old one. In the real world most would say he was more qualified than most surveyors you'd meet and he is.

As far as surveyors working for peanuts. Most surveyors are not working around the clock. It's not a high demand industry in any region of the world. Even the best ones don't make grand salaries.

Being a good surveyor is like being a good Captain they are a dime a dozen. I have friends that carry the same tonnage I do and have close to the same experience and training that struggle for work once a job ends. I luckily networked into the industry in my area. Surveyors that are always busy are always meeting people. There are plenty of surveyors short on work needing to fill as many days as possible that are very adequate or above average or even superior in their field.

If someone is working as a surveyor without a license that's illegal and would most certainly would be found out fast.

Lets get real here thruska on the lighten up Francis part. You're probably a pretty smart guy judging just by your thoughts on the subject. I could give two shits if people want to beat around the harbour or go to sea on a rough around the edges vessel. As long as they know what they are getting themselves into and are prepared to go down with the ship. But in my professional career I have been subject to so many maydays from the autodactic population I'd rather recommend to the guy posting "How much trouble could I get into?" to go get a survey.

If you think that's being too serious then you've never had to put your own life or your crews life on the line to pluck these people out of the water.
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