How Much Should These Upgrades Cost?

[hellosailor]

"1. New diesel engine in the 25-30 hp range. I was told $15,000 for this,"
Sounds typical. Given that there can be a $2-3,000 variation in engine brands, that much again in installation labor....it is ballpark. I would ask and expect that whatever estimate you are given, is in writing and says "not to exceed" with a cap value on it. (In some places there are legal bounds to how far work can exceed an estimate, you may already be capped that way.)

"A drivesaver" Good idea, if you foul the prop it is supposed to shear, like a fancy shear pin, to save bigger damage. If you installed it at ay other time--there would be a lot of extra labor.

"and a self-feathering prop...(does 2-blade vs 3 blade..."
Sailors prefer 2-blade, then it is a question of WHICH prop and whether you think the claims of extra speed are worth the extra cost. There's a plastic self-feathering one from NZ that's supposed to be really effective, but you'd really want to browse online, check current prices versus comments, and see which one makes sense to you for your budget & purposes.


"2. ...Is there a tankless heater that also doubles as a cabin heater? With a tankless heater, how do you get pressure hot water?" AFAIK no, and a cabin heater on a 30' boat is a major investment of space and money. A tankless heater requires a water pump for pressure, and it MUST be vented to spec and a monoxide detector installed, there's a real danger of getting killed if the job is botched. The Esbacher/Esper type diesel cabin heaters are the cats' pajamas, but that's not small, not cheap, and typically requires diesel fuel. Again, your options really depend on your budget and purposes (crusing? docked? moored?) here.

"3. Refrigeration....would be nice." If you check existing threads, this can be another big job. The frig, plus something to power it, now maybe a big committment of space and money for batteries and chargers...

"4. Upgrade electical system."
5. Solar panels (2).
6. Extra batteries.
....

Again, you need to be way more specific. If you've got lots of money, you can job this out. If you want to have faith in your systems, you can do it yourself with some time and patience and some very basic learning curve. Check the existing threads, use the search function. How long is a piece of string? There are no fast answers to the very general questions you ask. With all that work it might be cheaper to sell your boat an dbuy a new one already fitted out with factory labor, because yard rates in the bortheast--if you can find good help at any price--could rapidly and easily exceed the value of most 30-foot boats.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm interested in a self-feathering prop not for the extra speed, but for the better control it allegedly gives when motoring in reverse. Inboard engines are entirely new to me. My daysailer has a 5 hp put put that I never use.

Actually I would feel more confident having someone do the installation who has done it 100 times before and knows what he (or she) is doing. I know my limitations.

[Pblais]

Hot water based heat is the method used for reverse cycle A/C and is basically a heat pump. They work find so long as the water is above 40 degrees F but lose efficiency. In cold US NE climates I don't think you stay warm. Diesel truck heaters are now about the best there is. Looks like a long cylinder and sends out hot. Instant on.

We use a Bosch On demand hot water system that is ventless (the only one) and has the Oxygen Depletion Sensor. It's been on the boat since 1991 and it works fine. They cost about the same as an engine based hot water tank. You would not use them to heat the boat.

The electrical portions of what you want is a whole new system that would maybe reuse some wires. If the boat is older than 15 years there may be many parts of the wiring that don't really meet modern standard. Between all the other items you are pretty much rewiring the whole boat plus replacing the entire charging system and most of the serious power users. The cost of all this is perhaps low in my estimate.

I did a quick estimate and your list is looking like $40K without rewiring the whole boat or rebuilding the V berth. Those items could add many thousands. The labor for all this really is a killer. Even a well experienced person(s) is going to require many hours -100's of hours. If you did all the work yourself it might save you half but probably is not worth the money.

I think your upgrades just out stepped the value of the boat just for the raw materials. You didn't leave any money for running rigging, standing rigging, or sails. A boat that didn't require most of these major changes is going to be cheaper. A 30 ft boat with an engine that works and has refrigeration, and working plumbing is not hard to find for only the costs of your project list plus it might even sail too. That would remove the biggest ticket items 1 - 4 and 13. If you are on a budget then adding so much can never be worthwhile on any boat.

If you could add some of the other items yourself over time then most of those might be worthwhile but only after you had a working boat.

[Curmudgeon]

Let me come clean and explain the above list.

I've been looking at boats for a month. Over the past four weekends I probably visited every marina within 150 miles of Boston. I've narrowed the choice to two boats, and I will make an offer one one of these boats this week.

The list is a combination of the two boats.

Boat #1 is a 32 that looked to be in very good condition. Clean and shipshape, with all the creature comforts (hot water, shower cabin heater, etc.). Sails and rigging looked excellent to my untrained eye. No fraying, everything neatly coiled, etc. etc.

But no windlass, boom vang, solar panels, wind generator or water maker. Has an autopilot, but no windvane. Also needs storm sails.

Boat #2 is a Bristol Channel Cutter at a price I can afford (barely). Once again, the sails, spars, rigging looked excellent and the electronics are brand new (radar, gps, etc.) As for the rest of the boat... well, there is a reason why it is affordable. You Items 1,2,3,4 and 7 on my list relate specifically to that boat. It also has teak decks that will need fixing at some point.

But everyone tells me that these boats are equal as to ease of sailing, and the BCC has the reputation of being very seaworthy and seakindly.

So, do I dig deep into my wallet (now and for the next 5 years) to own a BCC? I will probably curse myself repeatedly if I do. Or curse myself repeatedly if I don't, because I'm 60 years old and the chance may never come again.

[Pblais]

As for the rest of the boat... well, there is a reason why it is affordable.

Normally they do cost a whole lot of money. I don't see a boat you can barely a afford to buy as being affordable to own when it needs that much done to use it. There are always more things when the list gets that long.

The first boat is usable as is. You can add the rest as you get used to the boat and come to terms with all the little things you won't find in the survey or just things you want to improve. You would be sailing into the fall this year easily. Boats are a enough work as it is so if you can start with something usable you won't waste a whole season of expenses and never get to use it.

The BCC has earned a very good reputation and in great condition they command a big price. When they get down low enough it takes too much money to bring them back unless money is not an issue. It's perfectly OK to put too much money into a boat if you don't have to worry. I really think if you look into great older boats like a BCC you really should look at the best ones not the ones on the bottom. These are the boats someone spared no expense with and they won't get their money out.

[imagine2frolic]

Maybe it is time to open your horizons a wee bit? I would be looking farther than 150 miles to seek out a boat. I would look in Thailand and every place in between. The internet is a wonderful thing.......BEST WISHES in finding the right boat!

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Pblais

Normally they do cost a whole lot of money. I don't see a boat you can barely a afford to buy as being affordable to own when it needs that much done to use it. There are always more things when the list gets that long.

The first boat is usable as is. You can add the rest as you get used to the boat and come to terms with all the little things you won't find in the survey or just things you want to improve. You would be sailing into the fall this year easily. Boats are a enough work as it is so if you can start with something usable you won't waste a whole season of expenses and never get to use it.

The BCC has earned a very good reputation and in great condition they command a big price. When they get down low enough it takes too much money to bring them back unless money is not an issue. It's perfectly OK to put too much money into a boat if you don't have to worry. I really think if you look into great older boats like a BCC you really should look at the best ones not the ones on the bottom. These are the boats someone spared no expense with and they won't get their money out.

The BCC is also quite usable as is, so long as you don't mind cold water, an icebox (sans refrigeration) and a porta potty for weekend cruising. The "sailing stuff" is good, although the boat is underpowered. And it has features that the 32 lacks, such as a windlass and a wind vane.

The 32 will cost me 30K plus another 10K to fix up. That's 40K. If I'm conscientious about maintaining her, in 10 years I'll own a boat that is worth 20K.

The BCC will cost me 100K. Roughly 65K will be upfront (and that figure includes the new head and hot water), with the remaining 35K spread over the next 5 years (and 15K of that is the engine). But in 10 years I'll have a boat worth close to 100K.

In short, the BCC will cost more, but I'm likely to get more of my money back when it's time to cart me off to assisted living. The real question is whether I'm willing to put up with the aggravation.

As for newer BCC's the seem to start at 150K, and still require some upgrading even at that price. That's too much.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

Maybe it is time to open your horizons a wee bit? I would be looking farther than 150 miles to seek out a boat. I would look in Thailand and every place in between. The internet is a wonderful thing.......BEST WISHES in finding the right boat!

I had enough trouble trying to buy a boat in North Carolina.

If you want a cheap boat, you don't have to go to Thailand. There are plenty of them in Florida.

Thanks for your best wishes.

[imagine2frolic]

No you sure don't have to go to Thailand. When I was looking for a boat there were several beauties there in Thailand. At a huge savings in cost. One a Hans Christiansen Christina at nearly 2/3's it's value. I actually ended up going from S.F. Ca. to St. Marten to buy my boat at a HUGE savings.

Another member from Australia just flew from Australia to St. Maarten to buy a boat at a sweet savings also. He's on his way from the Galapagos to somewhere in the South Pacific. A sweet purchase, and a heck of a trip home too

[Curmudgeon]

I'm not nearly experienced enough to make an ocean crossing. I would have to have the boat shipped back to the U.S.

[imagine2frolic]

I see, that will limit things, but if you can island hop with 2 days at the most. St. Maarten is an island of broken dreams, and marriages. That's how I got my boat. The dream was over for the couple........BEST WISHES in which ever direction you find yourself going!

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

The 32 will cost me 30K plus another 10K to fix up. That's 40K. If I'm conscientious about maintaining her, in 10 years I'll own a boat that is worth 20K.

The BCC will cost me 100K. Roughly 65K will be upfront (and that figure includes the new head and hot water), with the remaining 35K spread over the next 5 years (and 15K of that is the engine). But in 10 years I'll have a boat worth close to 100K.

In short, the BCC will cost more, but I'm likely to get more of my money back when it's time to cart me off to assisted living. The real question is whether I'm willing to put up with the aggravation.

As for newer BCC's the seem to start at 150K, and still require some upgrading even at that price. That's too much.

Obviously I do not have all the facts to hand - particularly as I am not au fait with US boat models or exactly what you are planning.......but on the basis that "the 32" is a suitable vessel for your needs / wants (once the upgrades have been made) and is broadly the equivalent of the BCC I would go with that. Basically on the basis that it is cheaper. With $65k to hand, less $40k for purchase and refit - leaves you $25k in the kitty which means a fair bit of comfort on the refit expenses / allows you to spoil yourself. Or simply to stick in the cruising kitty.......all without having to think about the additional $35k "spread over 5 years" - and remember you could be wrong on that. 25% out on the refit expenses for "the 32" would be annoying, but not a disaster - could you say the same about the BCC? or would you be adding extra years?

Methinks you are also being a bit pessimistic on resale in 10 years time for "the 32", if you (as you intend) are conscientous about maintaining her I would expect to get back the purchase price (even if waving goodbye to the refit and later maintanence money!).......otherwise I would look long and hard at both the purchase price and suitability of the vessel (from the viewpoint of it's design attractiveness to travel on for extended periods) If she is a suitable model for you to travel with now, odds are that she will serve the same purpose in 10 years time for someone else. In 10 years time $30k will be the new $20k anyway!......of course not to say that in 10 years time you won't sell her needing a refit - which will impact the price (but same for both vessels).

Of course always easy to suggest what other folks should do If only I could do the same for me

[hellosailor]

Curmudgeon-
"The BCC will cost me 100K....But in 10 years I'll have a boat worth close to 100K."

VERY unlikely. I have seen some boats--a rare few--that held their used sale prices over a decade. But not many. And almost none that held it that well. If you buy the Practical Sailor used boat evaluation books, you'll see they have graphed the new/vs/resale prices for many boats, over many years. The prices go DOWN, even with the best of care. Way down.

Then that's ignoring the economy, there have been periods of several years here and there when values plummet because no one has disposable income to buy them. And, to be fair, good years when prices rebounded a bit. (Rarely.)

In ten years, whatever you buy will have consumed two sets of sails--if you sail regularly and make good use of them--and be ready for another set of standing rigging, which either of those oats needs now, unless they were re-rigged in the last ten years. More money, more costs. Boats can surprise you that way.

You know what they say about casinos? Never bring more money than you an afford to lose, because you might lose it all.

Expect your boat maintenance and refit fees to be ongoing, to be potentially way higher than you expect (although that gets better with experience or intense homework), and your resale to be no better than average for the market. I'd be surprised if any $100k boat sold for more than $60k ten years down the line, even with the best of care. Pleasantly surprised--but surprised.

[Curmudgeon]

The 32 is an Aloha. Made in Canada. Long fin keel, not a full keel. Spade rudder, no skeg. It's basically the same boat as a Niagara 35, but scaled down from that.

It's unquestionably the practical choice. But it's not comparable to the BCC for seaworthiness. The Aloha is a lighter boat, so will likely be less stable, but will be better in light air I suppose.

The boat will not be cruised full time for at least 5 years, so I have no need for a "cruising kitty" at the moment but one does have to consider what the additional money would earn if invested. Of course the way the market has been doing it might be better to put the money into a boat LOL.

I very much appreciate everyone taking the time to respond. The last few posts have just about convinced me that the Aloha is the way to go.

[witzgall]

Curmudgeon;

Keep looking. We looked at an Aloha, but were put off by the HUGE companionway, and other things. They are nice boats, but if it nneds more thatn youare willing to spend, then that is not the right boat for you.

We ended up buying 32' Westerly Fulmar, and are very happy with her. The money keeps going out, not to much fixing things, but replacing, upgrading, etc. We are taking care of over nine years when the boat did not get anything replaced or upgraded.

Is there a reason you say you won't be doing any of the work? We have done almost all of it so far, except for some vinyl in the vberth and a seacock replacement. Painting, new depth, speedo, electronics, hatches, running rigging, etc, all done by the wife and me, and the savings are enormous. And in the process, wea re getting to know the boat well.

Chris